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- I'm confused ... Strata of Mind ... lost?
I'm confused ... Strata of Mind ... lost?
- BBodell
- Topic Author
15 years 8 months ago #58458
by BBodell
I'm confused ... Strata of Mind ... lost? was created by BBodell
When one has experienced the A&P Event (4th Nana) does one proceed sequentially through Dissolution (5th Nana) then the Dukkha Nanas (6 - 10) and remain in reobservation (10) until your practice takes you through to Equanimity (11th Nana)
OR
does on cycle through 6 - 8 until your practice takes you into 9, 10 then 11.
The reason I ask is because I believe I experienced the A&P event on retreat about 2 months ago (for the second time with a nearly 3 decade gap , no practice and living the Dukkha nanas for much of it )and when going through the progress of insight knowledges descibed on this site I can clearly recognise fear, misery, not disgust (as described) nor desire for deliverance as powerfully as described. I experience some of the dissatisfaction with practice - a loss vibrancy, a sense stagnation, a concern to buck things up and get them moving again - associated with re-observation, though little of the drama expected. Some little fear and moderate misery when sitting. I even experience brief periods of my awareness opening up and periods of equanimity and real peace (though it may be a cultivated indifference). I don't feel skilled enough or have experienced 'impressive' enough states to assume Equanimity (11th nana) is around the corner.
So presently I am questioning myself:
am I cycling through nanas 6-7 with 8,9,10 to come?
have I reached 10 and am sticking?
am I deluding myself that 11 is imminent when maybe I am really no where much?
My apologies for the wall of text and I hope your indulgence for the moan.
Any comments appreciated
OR
does on cycle through 6 - 8 until your practice takes you into 9, 10 then 11.
The reason I ask is because I believe I experienced the A&P event on retreat about 2 months ago (for the second time with a nearly 3 decade gap , no practice and living the Dukkha nanas for much of it )and when going through the progress of insight knowledges descibed on this site I can clearly recognise fear, misery, not disgust (as described) nor desire for deliverance as powerfully as described. I experience some of the dissatisfaction with practice - a loss vibrancy, a sense stagnation, a concern to buck things up and get them moving again - associated with re-observation, though little of the drama expected. Some little fear and moderate misery when sitting. I even experience brief periods of my awareness opening up and periods of equanimity and real peace (though it may be a cultivated indifference). I don't feel skilled enough or have experienced 'impressive' enough states to assume Equanimity (11th nana) is around the corner.
So presently I am questioning myself:
am I cycling through nanas 6-7 with 8,9,10 to come?
have I reached 10 and am sticking?
am I deluding myself that 11 is imminent when maybe I am really no where much?
My apologies for the wall of text and I hope your indulgence for the moan.
Any comments appreciated
- BBodell
- Topic Author
15 years 8 months ago #58459
by BBodell
Replied by BBodell on topic RE: I'm confused ... Strata of Mind ... lost?
perhaps if I simplify my post ...
When one has experienced the A&P Event (4th Nana) does one proceed sequentially through Dissolution (5th Nana) then the Dukkha Nanas (6 - 10) and remain in reobservation (10) until your practice takes you through to Equanimity (11th Nana)
OR
does on cycle through 6 - 8 until your practice takes you into 9, 10 then 11.
When one has experienced the A&P Event (4th Nana) does one proceed sequentially through Dissolution (5th Nana) then the Dukkha Nanas (6 - 10) and remain in reobservation (10) until your practice takes you through to Equanimity (11th Nana)
OR
does on cycle through 6 - 8 until your practice takes you into 9, 10 then 11.
- tomotvos
- Topic Author
15 years 8 months ago #58460
by tomotvos
Replied by tomotvos on topic RE: I'm confused ... Strata of Mind ... lost?
"perhaps if I simplify my post ...
When one has experienced the A&P Event (4th Nana) does one proceed sequentially through Dissolution (5th Nana) then the Dukkha Nanas (6 - 10) and remain in reobservation (10) until your practice takes you through to Equanimity (11th Nana)
OR
does on cycle through 6 - 8 until your practice takes you into 9, 10 then 11."
While far from being qualified to reply definitively, the answer to your question is (in theory) the latter. If you read Kenneth's descriptions of the strata, you keep going up/down during the course of one sit, and from sit to sit. Each time up you are breaking a bit more new ground, while grooving in the lower levels. That said, a lot of pre-SE practitioners here (me included) struggle with clearly seeing all the stages that are described. They seem more relevant as distinct stages after SE when your clarity of the cycles is (apparently) dramatically improved.
Many experienced practitioners here would probably guide you to worry less about exactly how you are progressing (and I know that is a bitter pill to swallow) and just sit and let whatever happens happen.
When one has experienced the A&P Event (4th Nana) does one proceed sequentially through Dissolution (5th Nana) then the Dukkha Nanas (6 - 10) and remain in reobservation (10) until your practice takes you through to Equanimity (11th Nana)
OR
does on cycle through 6 - 8 until your practice takes you into 9, 10 then 11."
While far from being qualified to reply definitively, the answer to your question is (in theory) the latter. If you read Kenneth's descriptions of the strata, you keep going up/down during the course of one sit, and from sit to sit. Each time up you are breaking a bit more new ground, while grooving in the lower levels. That said, a lot of pre-SE practitioners here (me included) struggle with clearly seeing all the stages that are described. They seem more relevant as distinct stages after SE when your clarity of the cycles is (apparently) dramatically improved.
Many experienced practitioners here would probably guide you to worry less about exactly how you are progressing (and I know that is a bitter pill to swallow) and just sit and let whatever happens happen.
- ClaytonL
- Topic Author
15 years 8 months ago #58461
by ClaytonL
Replied by ClaytonL on topic RE: I'm confused ... Strata of Mind ... lost?
"Many experienced practitioners here would probably guide you to worry less about exactly how you are progressing (and I know that is a bitter pill to swallow) and just sit and let whatever happens happen."
He hit it right on the head. When I was working my way up through to equanimity I didn't have the clarity to see exactly which nana I was at. Eventually I had to just accept that I was on the ride and only continued practice would bring relief. Make sure to practice diligently and let the process unfold. (I know I know easier said that done)
He hit it right on the head. When I was working my way up through to equanimity I didn't have the clarity to see exactly which nana I was at. Eventually I had to just accept that I was on the ride and only continued practice would bring relief. Make sure to practice diligently and let the process unfold. (I know I know easier said that done)
- kennethfolk
- Topic Author
15 years 8 months ago #58462
by kennethfolk
Replied by kennethfolk on topic RE: I'm confused ... Strata of Mind ... lost?
I like what both Tomo and Clayton said.
You asked if you are cycling through the nanas you've developed so far. The answer is yes, but the word "cycling" is actually a bit of a misnomer. What happens is that you go up and down through all the nanas that are currently available to you, adding more nanas over time. If a yogi's typical sitting is 1,2,3,2,1, then eventually it will be 1,2,3,4,3,2,1, then 1,2,3,4,5,4,3,2,1, etc. If you sit long enough at a stretch, you can move up and down the jhanic arc more than once in a sitting. And the equanimity nana (#11) is just like any other in that it just shows up one day out of the blue when the one that precedes it (#10) is sufficiently developed.
The only reason anyone gets stuck in #10 (re-observation) is that they stop practicing, stop noting. Sometimes re-observation is unpleasant. If you associate meditation with pleasant experience, you might be tempted to get up from sitting every time the going gets rough. Of course, you won't make that mistake because you know about the maps and the Progress of Insight. Rather than think of the 10th nana as something to get through, think of it as something to befriend. By noting, you can be free even during difficult times. When you think about it, this is the whole point. If you are free in hell, there's no need to prefer heaven. Take this as an opportunity to cultivate freedom. Let nature (and development) take care of itself.
Keep up the good practice,
Kenneth
You asked if you are cycling through the nanas you've developed so far. The answer is yes, but the word "cycling" is actually a bit of a misnomer. What happens is that you go up and down through all the nanas that are currently available to you, adding more nanas over time. If a yogi's typical sitting is 1,2,3,2,1, then eventually it will be 1,2,3,4,3,2,1, then 1,2,3,4,5,4,3,2,1, etc. If you sit long enough at a stretch, you can move up and down the jhanic arc more than once in a sitting. And the equanimity nana (#11) is just like any other in that it just shows up one day out of the blue when the one that precedes it (#10) is sufficiently developed.
The only reason anyone gets stuck in #10 (re-observation) is that they stop practicing, stop noting. Sometimes re-observation is unpleasant. If you associate meditation with pleasant experience, you might be tempted to get up from sitting every time the going gets rough. Of course, you won't make that mistake because you know about the maps and the Progress of Insight. Rather than think of the 10th nana as something to get through, think of it as something to befriend. By noting, you can be free even during difficult times. When you think about it, this is the whole point. If you are free in hell, there's no need to prefer heaven. Take this as an opportunity to cultivate freedom. Let nature (and development) take care of itself.
Keep up the good practice,
Kenneth
- BBodell
- Topic Author
15 years 8 months ago #58463
by BBodell
Replied by BBodell on topic RE: I'm confused ... Strata of Mind ... lost?
To all who post here, as well as those who replied, my sincere thanks - much have I benefitted over many months.
