Dreaming and the Strata of Mind

Does anyone have experience or thoughts on the interaction of the strata of mind with dreaming? I wonder because I had a couple of horrible dreams last night and the words 'fear' and 'disgust' seem like very accurate adjectives for them. Without going into too many details (mostly because I don't clearly remember them), I recall seeing a lot of blood and killing and generally being very afraid. I woke up a few times, which is quite rare for me since I'm typically a pretty deep sleeper. Maybe this relates to where I am on the maps? I've started a practice journal if that helps:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/38...d%27s+Practice+Notes

Anyone else have similar experiences?

Jarrod

It's a very interesting question. If you haven't seen August Leo's case study here on this site, it's worth reading. He describes really strange phenomena of lucid dreams within lucid dreams--like an infinite regress almost.
Logically, it makes perfect sense that if you are coming to terms, existentially, with the fact that you and everything else are dissolving--well, why wouldn't it show up in your dreams as well?
Overall, dreams are very strange territory. I seem to remember them a fair amount of the time and there's all kinds of incredibly inane and mundane stuff that I can trace directly to triviality in daily life. The most profound stuff shows up there, too.

Excellent. I will have to check out the case study. I have not read it yet. Lucid dreams within lucid dreams sounds pretty mind blowing. I've also been meaning to listen to recent talks by B. Alan Wallace on lucid dreaming and dream yoga ( www.upaya.org/dharma/lucid-dreaming-and-...m-yoga-part-1-of-13/ ).

I agree that logically, it should be no surprise that the various stages of insight could show up in dreams in some form. Maybe it is just coincidence, though. Fear and Disgust seemed a little further along the path than I've been experiencing on the cushion thus far. Perhaps I slipped into something though. Just seemed like interesting timing.

This is hard to understand, at least for me, but there is something about sleeping and the state of near sleep that is very liberating and useful to a mind trying to awaken. Many of the more critical realizations I've experienced were either manifest in dreams or in that never-never land of half-sleep. One I can recall vividly is the realization that "it's not me, it just is" or something like that. It took place in a lucid dream wherein I was being blamed for all kinds of errors and bad stuff at the office and was playing the role of scared victim (like I always did) until something quietly clicked (in the dream) and it was revealed to be not me, not me, not me, not me, just some stuff happening. In the dream I then relaxed into all that crappy stuff and things have been different ever since.

Yeah. Dreams.

"That which is not present in deep dreamless sleep is not real." -Ramana Maharshi
I thought this was kind of interesting, from a blog by a student of Ramana Maharshi (the blogger was probably not a native English speaker; sorry for the choppiness):
"Deep Sleep without dreams is called Susphuti and it is considered very close to Samadhi State. Ramana Maharshi used to sleep very deeply in his childhood. Maharshi Sleep used to be so deep that it was difficult to wake him up.
In his childhood If Ramana Maharshi had some differences with his friends then his friends used to wait till Ramana Maharshi fall asleep and When Ramana Maharshi used to fall asleep then his friends used to come and beat him and next day when Ramana Maharshi used to wake up then he used to wonder why my body is Aching so much.

The few moments before we went enter to sleep or we come our from sleep are very important for meditation and these moments are period of transformation when some one can enter or slip into another dimension of consciousness.

e.g. If some one wants to witness his dreams then one has to be watchful of these few minutes which are between sleep and waking state. There is a flux state of few moments when we are neither in waking state nor sleep has come. These are the moments when we are changing gear from waking state to sleep state. If meditator is wakeful in these moments then one can witness the dreams and witnessing dreams means they disappear and one has dreamless sleep like Ramana Maharshi used to have in childhood."

cmarti - thanks for sharing. Sounds like a powerful experience. Just curious, do you often have lucid dreams? Is that a practice you purposely cultivate or have they just happened spontaneously for you. I find the topic quite interesting.

Hi Jarrod, and a belated welcome to KFD.
When I used to study the meaning of dream contents -- in general the rooms, places, and other environment related scenarios are related to the "self." They're often symbolic representation for what ever you are dealing with, whether it be thoughts, spiritual evolvement, memories, etc. The various actions/activities in a dream such as flying, killing, running away from or to something... these all have to do with current life processes. "Killing" often means some part of you that is going through change and/ or facing some fear or doubt.
I think jgroove is right in saying "it makes perfect sense that if you are coming to terms, existentially, with the fact that you and everything else are dissolving--well, why wouldn't it show up in your dreams as well?"
- Tina

"
This is hard to understand, at least for me, but there is something about sleeping and the state of near sleep that is very liberating and useful to a mind trying to awaken. Many of the more critical realizations I've experienced were either manifest in dreams or in that never-never land of half-sleep. One I can recall vividly is the realization that "it's not me, it just is" or something like that. It took place in a lucid dream wherein I was being blamed for all kinds of errors and bad stuff at the office and was playing the role of scared victim (like I always did) until something quietly clicked (in the dream) and it was revealed to be not me, not me, not me, not me, just some stuff happening. In the dream I then relaxed into all that crappy stuff and things have been different ever since.

Yeah. Dreams.

"

It's certainly true that getting up at 4 or 5 a.m. is kind of traditional on retreat. Maybe there's some kind of recognition of what you're saying here, Chris.

This is an interesting topic to me since dream/imagery was somewhat problematic in my meditation practice. Problematic probably isn't the best word, since in actuality there is no good, bad, or problematic meditation. Sometimes my meditations are inundated with imagery and dream states (not sleep) particularly when I'm experiencing change in my daily life. It used to be somewhat frustrating, but I finally realized that "this too is Not Two." This is just another part of the process of ongoing practice. (Btw, for those who do not know of my practice style -- I practice "just sitting").
I'm aware of the "dreams" as they arise, and in this awareness I'm able to say "this is a dream, this too is not reality" -- then there is stillness again (no thoughts, just awareness). Sometimes this goes on and on throughout the 1 hour sit... arising and passing of dreams/imagery (as a dream arises, it is noted without conceptualizing and it immediately ceases). Really nothing more than visual 'thoughts'. -- Just the mind doing what the mind does... For me, this is another means of dissolving delusion, another means of realizing Emptiness.
- Tina

"cmarti - thanks for sharing. Sounds like a powerful experience. Just curious, do you often have lucid dreams? Is that a practice you purposely cultivate or have they just happened spontaneously for you. I find the topic quite interesting."

I do have a lot of lucid dreams... now. I didn't used to before about two years ago. I have never cultivated them. They just started happening on their own. One day I will cultivate them,, a la AugustLeo. First things first, however

I ran across some Mahasi Sayadaw comments on sleep this morning and thought I'd pass them along:
"Sleep is a prolonged period of the 'life continuum' or 'functional' consciousness. It is the same kind of consciousness that arises during the first moment of one's life and the last moment of one's life. This type of consciousness is so subtle that its sense object cannot be known. Life continuum also occurs between successive moments of full consciousness while awake. For example, it occurs between moments of seeing and thinking, hearing and thinking, and so on. However, at these times it does not last long enough for us to notice. When we sleep, it lasts long enough that we notice it, but we still cannot detect its characteristics or object. Therefore, when we are asleep, it is not possible to note any objects."
This leads to a question: Is noting practice possible in lucid dreaming? Noting dream objects would not be the same thing as seeing the "sense object" of sleep itself, I suppose.
Hmmm...