Developemental Progress + Non-Dual Awakening

Hey everyone. I hope I am not asking a question which has had extensive treatment in another thread. If so please point me to it and I will check it out. My question(s) came out of recently re-listening to the Hurricane Ranch Discussion. www.interactivebuddha.com/podcasts.shtml Obviously Kenneth's teaching respects both the developmental model and timeless realization. As far as 'getting it done' 'curing dharma disease' etc how do they relate? To Get it done is it necessary to go through all the 4 paths and have a Non-dual 2nd 3rd gear like awakening. Is only the non-dual awakening important? I dunno I am coming to a place where I am realizing that I am actually going to have to finish this work. (Not by next week or anything haha) What I read here gives me real encouragement that it can be done. Some of the stuff I see on our sister forum makes me wary of deluding myself into thinking the work is done...

Anyway its kind of a barrage of questions. Take whichever ones you want to talk about and just go for it. I think this could be a good discussion...

I think the whole package is important, Clayton. People who have one (development or realization) without the other don't feel complete, based on the reports I get from various yogis along with my own experience. So, you want to continue to do developmental practice through time while occasionally unplugging from the time-stream to recognize that it's always already done. Paradox? Yes. But it can be done. I teach my students to switch back and forth between the time-bound and the timeless perspectives, rather than to emphasize one over the other.

For me, it's all about pragmatism. If I could see that yogis are content, complete, and fulfilled with one or the other (development or realization), I would just teach that one aspect as essential and the other as optional. But when I reality test this, I don't see any yogis like that; to really feel that all is right with the world, you need both time and the timeless.

It's worth committing to the whole package.

Kenneth

Thanks Kenneth, well put, well put.

Another angle worth exploring is the "when?" of time-bound and timeless practices. We know that we need both the developmental and the always-already (two-sides of the same coin, really), but I think it isn't always clear to folks "when" they should practice one or the other. Fortunately for us, Kenneth has already come up with a practical, algorithmic approach that incorporates the various meditative tools available to us. Of course, I'm referring to the Three Speeds.

The Three Speeds could really be made into a Insight Practice Flow-Chart:

STEP ONE: Are you able to surrender and rest as primordial awareness right now? 'A' for Yes, 'B' for No.

If 'A' - keep it up!

If 'B' - proceed to'¦

STEP TWO: Are you able to clarify the a sense of Witnessing (or "I Am") via self-inquiry ("Who am I?", "What is this?")? 'A' for Yes, 'B' for No.

If 'A' - great! Do this until the Witness/I Am-ness collapses into primordial awareness, and move up to STEP ONE.

If 'B' - proceed to'¦

STEP THREE: Are you able to stay focused/one-pointed enough to do noting/vipassana practice? (it doesn't take much.) 'A' for Yes, 'B' for No.

If 'A' - wonderful. Practice noting/vipassana. Periodically check to see if you can clarify the Witness through self-inquiry. If not, repeat STEP THREE.

If 'B' - proceed to'¦

STEP FOUR: Choose a steady object (e.g. the breath, a kasina, a visualization, etc.) and practice samatha. Are you able to stay with the object enough to practice vipassana/noting? (again, it doesn't take much) 'A' for Yes, 'B' for No.

If 'A' - good news. Move up to STEP THREE.

If 'B' - repeat STEP FOUR.

That's an interesting concept, Jackson, presented as a diagnostic tool to be used by the meditator, followed by a prescription for each negative answer. Cool!

"
That's an interesting concept, Jackson, presented as a diagnostic tool to be used by the meditator, followed by a prescription for each negative answer. Cool!

"

Thanks, Chris. What I wrote above is a bit simplistic compared to how it actually works, but I didn't want to make it too complicated. What I like about it is that it applies something akin to Shinzen Young's uber-geeky, technology based practice, to the practices of Kenneth's Three Speeds, which I think are superior to Young's techniques. The results found in my own practice are quite positive. Once I got the hang of it, I haven't ever wondered "what should I be doing?" during a sit.

Hi Jackson,

This is a great algorithm and simplicity helps to remember and highlights the what is important. It would be good as a flow chart as pictorially it would be easier and quicker to understand. Can I urge you or Kenneth to put something likes this up. Great work. Wonderful site

have a great day
Jeff

It's a really interesting flow chart Jackson. I like stuff like that.

But I must say I am not sure that I could make that flow chart work for me at the moment. For some reason 2nd gear practice comes really naturally to me, but for whatever reason I'm not really interested in exploring that side of things right now. On the other hand, 1st gear practice is extremely awkward for me, but I am really captivated by it to the point that I spend much more time practicing 1st gear than anything else.

In a way it makes sense to go with what I am best suited to (2nd gear), but for some reason something in me really wants to explore 1st gear practice instead. The flow chart seems to impily that if you can adequately explore second gear you don't need to explore first gear, instead just move on to 3rd...

Of all the things I have ever read on how to proceed, Daniel's idea to make Stream Entry the formost priority seems to work best for me. It's great and essential that 2nd and 3rd gears are examined in Kenneth's teachings though, I do recognise their value. Like Kenneth said "the whole package is important" but for now1st gear is of such interest to me that I want to stick with it.

"Hi Jackson,

This is a great algorithm and simplicity helps to remember and highlights the what is important. It would be good as a flow chart as pictorially it would be easier and quicker to understand. Can I urge you or Kenneth to put something likes this up. Great work. Wonderful site

have a great day
Jeff"

That's a really great idea. I'm not good at designing anything like that, but I'd welcome anyone else to give it a shot.

Hi Mark,

If 1st gear practice intrigues you due to its relative difficulty compared to other practices you're familiar with, than keep it up. In order to practice the Three Speeds in the way that I outlined above, it's important to spend time developing all of the necessary tools. I think that once one can put to use all of the tools in their Yogi Toolbox, the practice I outlined above can be very effective. Until then, working on vipassana to the point of landing stream entry may be exactly what you should be focusing on.

~Jackson

Sounds good to me Jacks, thanks for the reply.

Nice, can relate to it . . .

The link for the Insight Practice Flow-Chart image. i42.tinypic.com/jg5e6r.png

Can we include an image directly in the message?

metta
Sanjay

"The link for the Insight Practice Flow-Chart image.
i42.tinypic.com/jg5e6r.png
"-Sanjay

Delightful!

Sanjay, I predict that you will be warmly embraced by this community of Buddhist geeks. And Jackson, as always, you rock!

Kenneth

Thanks so much Sanjay... kudos on the flow chart...

... thinking of how to take that flowchart and blow it up to poster size..

"Nice, can relate to it . . .

The link for the Insight Practice Flow-Chart image. i42.tinypic.com/jg5e6r.png

Can we include an image directly in the message?

metta
Sanjay"

Sanjay, this is incredible! Thank you for taking the time to put it together

~Jackson

"... And Jackson, as always, you rock!

Kenneth"

Hey, it's simply another way to implement your Three Speeds teaching. If we want to keep it really geeky around here, maybe we could refer to this insight flowchart as the "Folk-Wilshire Algorithm". Ha, ha.

~Jackson

"
... thinking of how to take that flowchart and blow it up to poster size..

"

I put it together as a Word File, but posted the png fromat. If you tell me the size for the poster you want and file format, i can try to convert it and post the link here.

Metta
Sanjay

Edit: Link for the bigger size image img193.imageshack.us/img193/2677/aninsightpracticeflowch.png