thoughts on "The Controversy"

Telecaster in his comments on Kenneth's essay concerning "The Controversy" said "at this point it seems very clear and factual to me that everything is empty and flickering in and out of existence constantly" I believe this becomes a perceptual reality at some point after correct practice (I'm not there yet!). But could this just be a perception of the human nervous system and mind and it's limits and how it works and not a statement of the ultimate nature of reality? And ultimate reality does have "inherent existence" after all? It's still there in between the flickering perceptions of the human mind? Perhaps there could be an extrapolation from finite and limited experience that really goes beyond the evidence in some areas of buddhism?

Jeffrey, even if there were some fixed, permanent reality "out there" somewhere, since you experience absolutely everything through your senses and your mind, how would you ever know it in any way other than as a comforting story?

"Telecaster in his comments on Kenneth's essay concerning "The Controversy" said "at this point it seems very clear and factual to me that everything is empty and flickering in and out of existence constantly" "

that's kind of weird to read.
I guess I still think that, but lately I'm having to admit that I am no where near the stage where I have whatever understanding of that that people that are at first path or beyond might have. I don't even know what first path and beyond means, though I'd love to think I do!
I'm kind of getting back to the basic place that the buddha recomended to be in -- to check things out for oneself and to not follow something without seeing if it is really true to you (or Bill Hamilton's and Kenneth's admonishment to focus on the place you are at right now). You know?
So, then, to be clear right now, I'm just kind of confused because while I don't SEE a "me" it really really really seems like there is one.
If I'd never heard of vipassana of Buddhism or any of this stuff but had just been objectively observing reality like I have been and someone asked me what was going on my best guess would be that I'm actually right here and what I am is this collection of sensations and instincts and desires and memories all of them coming and going and arising and passing sometimes quickly and sometimes slowly. That there is no way to pinpoint and point to a separate "me." And that it is also hard to pinpoint where what is "me" ends and where what is "not me" begins so maybe we are all connected in a way or something. But, that also there is this powerful thing right here right now that suffers and wants things and that calls itself me and if you where to threaten my life or health or the life or health of my family (and my dogs and cat and in someways my country) I would react just like I actually existed.

"that's kind of weird to read.
I guess I still think that, but lately I'm having to admit that I am no where near the stage where I have whatever understanding of that that people that are at first path or beyond might have. I don't even know what first path and beyond means, though I'd love to think I do!
I'm kind of getting back to the basic place that the buddha recomended to be in -- to check things out for oneself and to not follow something without seeing if it is really true to you (or Bill Hamilton's and Kenneth's admonishment to focus on the place you are at right now). You know?
So, then, to be clear right now, I'm just kind of confused because while I don't SEE a "me" it really really really seems like there is one.
If I'd never heard of vipassana of Buddhism or any of this stuff but had just been objectively observing reality like I have been and someone asked me what was going on my best guess would be that I'm actually right here and what I am is this collection of sensations and instincts and desires and memories all of them coming and going and arising and passing sometimes quickly and sometimes slowly. That there is no way to pinpoint and point to a separate "me." And that it is also hard to pinpoint where what is "me" ends and where what is "not me" begins so maybe we are all connected in a way or something. But, that also there is this powerful thing right here right now that suffers and wants things and that calls itself me and if you where to threaten my life or health or the life or health of my family (and my dogs and cat and in someways my country) I would react just like I actually existed. "

is it clear that this is just the ramblings of someone with very little insight and that there are many people who post here with much stronger and more sure opinions?

I think you have more insight than you give yourself credit for, Mike. There is no permanent you, but when the conditions arise you love your kids, eat when you're hungry, dislike your long commute to the office, and so on. Impermanence is not utter non-existence.The Buddhist's "not self" is not a negation of the human being.

I'm always hungry.

"But could this just be a perception of the human nervous system and mind and it's limits and how it works and not a statement of the ultimate nature of reality? And ultimate reality does have "inherent existence" after all? It's still there in between the flickering perceptions of the human mind? Perhaps there could be an extrapolation from finite and limited experience that really goes beyond the evidence in some areas of buddhism?
"

If there is a reality outside of human perception, how would you ever know it?

Or to turn it another way: everything is flickering in and out of existence, just at different speeds. A mountain may seem very firm, but seen over millions of years it is just a ripple. If you break things down into subatomic parts, according to quantum physicists, you see these parts flickering in and out of reality. So it would seem to me that even if you accept an objective material reality, the flickering of human perception is more of a result of this universal pattern than its sole manifestation.

"If there is a reality outside of human perception, how would you ever know it?
"

Great question. A question that begs the question what is perception? Perception is not the perception of a "real" external Reality, rather it is the perceiving of itself, its own structures. So there is only consciousness and in this recognition there is an equal recognition of the essence of emptiness.