The end of seeking

Chrispapa: Maybe the ride ends when the seeking becomes exhausted somehow.

Kenneth: Yes, the seeking does become exhausted, or perhaps the lack that causes it ceases to be a lack; you can't see over the fence in the back yard when you are a kid, but as soon as you get taller, the problem disappears. It's biological and developmental. There is also the perspective from which it isn't necessary to see over the fence, and this is the sudden Realization component. For most people, neither of these is sufficient by itself. Both are needed in order to feel that the world is OK. Development and Realization go together, the time-bound and the timeless.

"Chrispapa: Maybe the ride ends when the seeking becomes exhausted somehow.

Kenneth: Yes, the seeking does become exhausted, or perhaps the lack that causes it ceases to be a lack; you can't see over the fence in the back yard when you are a kid, but as soon as you get taller, the problem disappears. It's biological and developmental. There is also the perspective from which it isn't necessary to see over the fence, and this is the sudden Realization component. For most people, neither of these is sufficient by itself. Both are needed in order to feel that the world is OK. Development and Realization go together, the time-bound and the timeless.

"

Done is what needs to be done - has always seemed to be a paradox, but from another perspective will conditions change, the fence get taller, does it ever end

"Done is what needs to be done - has always seemed to be a paradox, but from another perspective will conditions change, the fence get taller, does it ever end"

That's the thing about philosophical arguments - many end up facilitating an infinite regress. Is there enlightenment beyond enlightenment? What about beyond even THAT? Or in terms of theism; if God created everything, who created God? As the modern myth says, "It's turtles all the way down."

The great contemplative spiritual traditions have one important teaching in common: that there is a Reality, and that we can know It. Rather, we ARE It. The proverbial fence does not get higher. But we do become more clear about what was previously unknown, and I don't think that process ever stops.

As Gozen once told me, being "done" is like passing a course with a "C" grade. There is completion, but true mastery takes a lifetime (if not MANY lifetimes).

~Jackson

This topic interest me a lot. I have heard people describe stream entry as puncturing a tire... sooner or later all the air will comes out. I don't understand how people like Dipa Ma and Joeseph Goldstien (the former an anagami and the later certainly a stream enterer or beyond) say they are not done after years of practice... I dunno it probably has something to do with the outrageous standards everyone has for being done...

I attained a path just recently. It's too early to tell if I'm done, but I can definitely see what causes people to feel done. It's like the very notion of obsessing over something becomes silly and awkward. Not just the about the path - anything. What was I after? I'm not sure, but I feel satisfied.

Interesting topic. I can't relate to the Theravada 4 Paths model, but can now relate to it as far as Zen and other non-dual paths are concerned.

Going through various awakening experiences, we get into a kind of 'I got it, I lost it' stage where we just don't know what to do to stabilize an experience into an abiding state. We then realize that we can't do anything to gain an abiding awakening, because we cannot do anything to be what we are. Realizing that, we gradually stop chasing experiences to surrender to what is. Eventually, we come to the sudden realization that what we truly are has always been and will always be; that the seeker is the sought; that there is nothing to do and nowhere to go. The whole spiritual quest suddenly looks like a big joke and we can't believe how stupid we have been to miss the obvious for so many years.

And this is it. The mountains are again mountains. Meditation is not essentially different that everyday life. When we sit, we just sit. Nothing to do, nowhere to go. It is the end of the path to Buddhahood? Certainly not! Is it the end of seeking? Yes it is. There is a sense of completion and wholeness that cannot be argued anymore. Meditation is not anymore a means to an end. Meditation is just an expression of awakening. Daily life gradually becomes an expression of awakening. Even if true mastery might take decades or even endless kalpas, we don't really care anymore because what we are is unborn

More and more I come to understand what is posted in threads like these, but one glaring thing stands out for me....I'm not done by a long shot....yet!
Paul

Short answer -- no, the fence does not keep getting taller, and in many ways you built that fence yourself and when you realize that the fence kind of disappears

Long answer --

This is a complex issue. There are several answers depending on which seeking we're talking about, and what it is we're seeking. In terms of the two types of what we at KFDh usually think of as "enlightenment" there is indeed an end, but those two "ends" are somewhat different.

Non-Dual: once a person "sees" the non-dual , the simplest thing, it becomes very clear that the experience is as basic, simple, and universal as "it" can ever be. It's very difficult to describe this experience in standard language because the experience itself transcends thinking or any form of conceptual thought required of linguistic communication. But once had, that experience tends to end that sort of seeking, although to call it seeking is kind of weird and to say that it happens to anyone is also kind of weird. But we'll leave it at that for now.

Four Path Model: this is a process that, from my experience, appears to be organic, biological, energetic and conceptual all at the same time. It runs its course at a pace that seems at times to be under the control of the person and then at times not under the control of the person. That said, there is, at a certain point in time, a "thing" that happens that causes one to know that the answers one has been driven to find have been right in front of them the whole time, and that they are, in at least one sense, "done." The processes that have been driving that person's seeking have subsided or stopped. That "thing" that occurs is a smallish thing as it happens but ends up having very large implications. It seems to bring the universe into a certain balance and bring a different perspective to one's awareness.

And... this won't surprise anyone but I agree with Kenneth that both of these are required and support the perceptual lense through which the universe is seen as whole and complete (and wondrous and beautiful and just and only as it IS) and, oddly, that things are right where they need to be for that to be felt as True.

I agree with you, cmarti. I have only had a couple of glimpses into the "simplest thing" for a total of a few seconds, but it is in my estimation very different from the sort of thing that happens in path cultivation. Path cultivation is like, "quiet, you!", and sometimes the mind learns something emerging from the quietest moments. The simplest thing is more like "Oh. So that's all there is to it. Move along folks, nothing to see here..."