What is an Arahat

Dear Kenneth,

A friend recently posted information relating to what he described as his stream entry and also referred to you as a Arahat.

My perception of what an Arahat is, is someone who can no longer break sila in any way. A pure and saintly person. However reading your blog I don't get that feeling at all. In your world what is an Arahat, and what is the point of it.

Could you please explain to me why you feel your an Arahat and what is your definition of Arahat.

Psychic powers seem of little use if one is beset by the ignorance of craving and aversion.

respectfully

dhammachild

Hi Dhammachild,

Kenneth answers the questions "What is an arahat?" in the following article...

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/What...etter+to+a+friend%29

Feel free to ask any additional questions after reading it.

~Jackson

This might help, too, since Daniel Ingram and Kenneth don't seem to disagree on the basics of the four path Theravada model of enlightenment:

www.interactivebuddha.com/arahats.shtml

Why do you ask, dhammachild? I'm curious.

Exemplified already in this thread is the one basic truth about Arhatship, which is that no one can agree about what qualifies as Arhatship.

"Exemplified already in this thread is the one basic truth about Arhatship, which is that no one can agree about what qualifies as Arhatship."

no, I think Kenneth and Daniel and all the people here who are at first path or beyond DO agree. Unless I'm missing something.

That's my version, too, Mike. There seems to be very little disagreement among us folk here over the broad strokes of it, both at KFDh and at DhO. The big disagreement seems to be between Daniel, Kenneth, and others who claim arahatship and the folks who adhere to a very strict, orthodox view of what it means. I'm sort of assuming dhammachild is using the traditional, limited emotional range model of arahtaship, which means no human being can possibly achieve it

I have a feeling this might be related to me. When I came across Daniel Ingram and the DhO over 2 years ago, I had the same reaction. How can an Arahat be a layperson? Aren't they supposed to die within 7 days of becoming an Arahat or become a monk? ISn't an Arhat supposed to be a superhuman being, who has limited emotions and has pure, pure sila? I had , due to years as a hardcore theravadan practitioner, indoctrinated myself with all these beliefs. Such blind beliefs without any proof, relying purely on what someone said or wrote down 500 years after Gotoma passed on.

Well, I am not an arahat so I can't tell you what it means to be one. But my god....where does that dogma come from? ...in 7 days you'll be dead if you don't robe? Why 7 days and not 4 days? If you observed the precepts all your life and then you become an arhat, I don't think you are going to give up observing the precepts. In my own experience, you feel inclined to be a good person as you progress because you see clearly when you commit actions that harm that they are not beneficial for you nor others. But that doesn't mean you can't make a mistake. I accept only what I experience to be the truth, just as the Buddha said himself. Be a light unto yourself. If what I said in my post on stream entry rings true with you, use it for inspiration and see if what I said brings you results. Leave aside that little black stone (of cardamon) from the kir that seems to be causing you to question what I posted (assuming it is me you were refering to).

You can't argue with those who are attached to such ideals. They are going to have to wrestle with that entanglement of views until they experience it all themselves to see what is dogma and what is real. Don't let your views be such a massive obstacle to progress! Dhammachild, just go get stream entry already. You can do it!

An Arahat for me is one who has explored fully the four noble truths through personal experience, and in regards to these truths has no blank or blind areas.

An Arahat for me is someone who is saintly, and suffused with all the qualities of an enlightened person, with all the 10 paramis strong and unbreakable.

Is Kenneth an Arahat like this.

If not what is Kenneth's definition of an Arahat.

That's quite the ideal to have there, dhammachild. Would the fact that those who are claiming to have gotten at least first path here and at the DhO don't agree fully with all those criteria stop you from going for stream entry yourself? And assuming that I am the friend you refered to, do you disagree with what I described about what one needs to do in order to get 1st path?

Again, I repeat...don't let any view or opinion stop you going for it yourself so you can verify those things. Question and attempt to verify all your ideas, assumptions and beliefs. Cos some of them could be wrong.

I have no doubt that all of my assumptions are wrong, and I appreciate your call to action. Whether I attain stream entry is not as important to me as attaining an ongoing and precise and accurate understanding of the truth without any trace of delusion as it unfolds from moment to moment.

Perhaps this will change over time, but for now it feels right to have this approach.

Thank you for your thoughts and motivation...

Dear Dhammachild,

Some people believe that the only way to happiness is to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Others believe that unless you follow the way of Muhammad, you are lost. You believe in Arahats. What is the basis of your belief? Is it because you have read about what an Arahat is? Perhaps it is because you have heard that that Buddha said this or that. Why would your belief be better or more accurate than that of a Christian or a Muslim? It's almost as though you are drawing beliefs from a hat at random and arbitrarily deciding to hitch your wagon to one or the other.

For me, to believe something you have read or heard is silly. For me, the most important thing the Buddha (allegedly) said was "Ehi passiko." Come and see. Don't believe me. Don't believe the Buddha. Do the practices the Buddha recommended and see where they lead.

True spirituality begins the day you decide to put your faith in your own experience instead of putting your faith in ideas you have heard from someone else. Are you ready to make that kind of commitment to your own awakening?

Don't believe me. Don't believe anyone. Above all, don't believe your own calcified thoughts. Come and see.

May you awaken in this lifetime,

Kenneth

Dear Kenneth,

I would have to agree with you on your points and logic regarding belief.

Whether you are a Arahat or not has little to do with that I may or may not believe.

Obviously under your definition of an Arahat, you are indeed one and the same, whether or not this is the meaning of the term that was reputedly expressed by the Buddha, is not not clear to me nor in the context of things need it be.

I have experience of Anicca and Anatta through my own practice, and am confident enough to have an opinion, and I am also aware that my opinions are based on my own limited experience which hopefully is progressing rather than regressing.

I have something to learn from everyone, so thank you for all your efforts.

For my interest, have you developed the ability to know what to say to one person as opposed to another which is the right thing for that person to hear at the right time, of if not do you someone who has that skill.

I am in search of a teacher who will be able to work with me even though my cup is full at times.

Wishing all the best...,

Dhammachild

"For my interest, have you developed the ability to know what to say to one person as opposed to another which is the right thing for that person to hear at the right time, of if not do you someone who has that skill.
"

Hi Dhammachild,

Although you have posed this question in rather black and white terms, something that I think is hard to apply to dharma and to Kenneth, I am prompted to recomend Kenneth due to my communications with him. So much (if not most) of what Kenneths teaches is available on this site, so there are no really big suprises, however any one on one with Kenneth will give you the opportunity to have his experience hone your practice. Obviously the evaluation of how successful a meeting is is dependant on many factors.

All the best with practice.

"



Whether I attain stream entry is not as important to me as attaining an ongoing and precise and accurate understanding of the truth without any trace of delusion as it unfolds from moment to moment.


"

Edited to include another "really".

Stream entry really, really, really, really, really helps in this regard. This delusion, this illusion of "I" can be seen for what it truly is. For me that is how I got 1st path. It has changed me considerably in regard to delusion. There is most certainly less of it! Why would you not want to go for it when it is in reach? And I would suggest Kenneth could take on that teaching role. The wonders of skype allow for some good one on one time with him. Worth a try.

"no, I think Kenneth and Daniel and all the people here who are at first path or beyond DO agree. Unless I'm missing something. "

People on this specific forum are very likely to agree with Kenneth's views of enlightenment, for obvious reasons. In general, there is disagreement. Then there are all the people of different spiritual (or secular) traditions who have made equivalent progress but interpret it differently.

The question I have for people is, do you want to become an Arahat, or do you want to see what there is to see and experience the relief that there is to be had? Do you want to attain to the four paths of enlightenment, or do you want to ride the rapids that is the path as far as it can possibly take you

Dhammachild, I asked you before but never received a reply -- why are you concerned about this?

cmarti, belief is not relevent, even experiential knowledge can be distorted with ones own imperfect perception, therefore my point of view for now is best kept to myself, I would be interested in hearing Kenneth's thought on my reply to him.

have a great day

"cmarti, belief is not relevent, even experiential knowledge can be distorted with ones own imperfect perception, therefore my point of view for now is best kept to myself, I would be interested in hearing Kenneth's thought on my reply to him.

have a great day"

My guess; cmarti was trying to be helpful here by trying to address what was underlying the line of questions, to give a more considered response. Thoughout this thread I have had to guess as to the point of the questioning, and I would have been interested in your reply. Actually you may not realize, that withholding the information is still a reply! And I am not buying into the pretense of humility with reasoning that "belief not being relevent". The exchanges here have their basis in belief.

That's cool. dhammachild. I was only trying to understand the source of your question.

"My guess; cmarti was trying to be helpful here by trying to address what was underlying the line of questions, to give a more considered response. Thoughout this thread I have had to guess as to the point of the questioning, and I would have been interested in your reply. Actually you may not realize, that withholding the information is still a reply! And I am not buying into the pretense of humility with reasoning that "belief not being relevent". The exchanges here have their basis in belief.


"

garyth, there is no real point to most questions, nor am I humble, nor trying to act as such. I have fromed personal opinions based on my experience which upon reflection do not bare discussion. I wish I was truly humble because than I would be feeling more peace in my life. Wishing you well with metta dhammachild

Dear Kenneth,

Are you able to answer my queries regarding teaching ?

Dhammachild

"Dear Kenneth,

Are you able to answer my queries regarding teaching ?

Dhammachild

"

Hey dhammachild,

Your question was this right?

"For my interest, have you developed the ability to know what to say to one person as opposed to another which is the right thing for that person to hear at the right time, of if not do you someone who has that skill?"


Kenneth, does lessons via skype. You tell him how your doing in your sits, what you are experiencing and Kenneth gives you good sound advice and explanations on what do next or what to keep doing. It "seems" you have the impression that an arhat is supposed to read minds? Regardless, Kenneth when he has the time, is a brilliant teacher of meditation and he knows his stuff. He is getting busy these days but why not send him a personal message. As soon as I started having lessons with him, my pracitce became for lack of a better word "streamlined" and I think I am making fast progress.

Nick