"Contrived mind" and "the basic mind."

"It is said in the Great Perfection [Dzogchen] teachings that one cannot become enlightened through a contrived mind; rather, the basic mind is to be identified, in relation to which all phenomena are to be understood as the sport of the mind." -The Dalai Lama

This sounds simple enough. But, what do you think HHDL means by "contrived mind" and "the basic mind"?

Discuss

~Jackson

Contrived must mean producing something that is not natural. In the case of the mind in meditation I would argue that what HHDL is saying the equivalent of the Zen shikantaza prescription to just sit. No purpose, no expectation, no activity of mind. That would then be pristine mind, which is sort of the opposite of contrived mind.

Pristine mind = basic mind.

At least that's what I say

Thanks, Chris. That makes sense.

I'm wondering if contrived mind, in this context, would include deep states of absorption. I know that hardcore zennies teach that swimming around in deep samadhi states won't do the trick.

I guess we could say that "contrived mind" is the embedded mind, and that "the basic mind" is the mind that remains when contrivances cease. Just an idea.

Anyone else?

At a guess anything added to just this (awareness) = contrived mind and basic mind is No Mind and phenomena is the activity that takes place in this mind. Observe that activity

"At a guess anything added to just this (awareness) = contrived mind and basic mind is No Mind and phenomena is the activity that takes place in this mind. Observe that activity
"

Nice.

So then, how is the basic mind "to be identified"? I have ideas, of course, but I'm interested in what others have to say.

"Nice.

So then, how is the basic mind "to be identified"? I have ideas, of course, but I'm interested in what others have to say."

Once you identify the mind you have contrived mind. Basic mind -Not getting caught up in conceptual or discursive thought let phenomena rise and fall without labelling or being attached.

Considering the context, I would suppose that the "basic mind" means the Great Perfection. That's basically the same as pure awareness, the unconditioned, the simplest thing, etc., right?

when one struggles to explain the difference between basic mind and contrived and realizes that it is impossible and just gives up completely, the the resultant state is probably basic mind

""... rather, the basic mind is to be identified, in relation to which all phenomena are to be understood as the sport of the mind." -The Dalai Lama

This sounds simple enough. But, what do you think HHDL means by "contrived mind" and "the basic mind"?

Discuss

~Jackson"

It seems to me that the key is not that a contrast between a 'good' basic mind and a 'bad' contrived mind is being made, but that there is a practice being described: identify the basic mind, what the mind is in itself, before it has an agenda, and regardless of whatever agenda it's pursuing. Once you can do that, even in passing, you can recognize that perceptions, emotions, conceptions-- all the stuff the mind DOES-- are not barriers to realization, but expressions of it. That you are not something else or better than your 'unenlightened' self, but that you are not limited to any of the parts of totality.

"all the stuff the mind DOES-- are not barriers to realization, but expressions of it. That you are not something else or better than your 'unenlightened' self, but that you are not limited to any of the parts of totality."

Wonderful as always thanks Roomy

Roomy - glorious!

Mike - you wrote, "when one struggles to explain the difference between basic mind and contrived and realizes that it is impossible and just gives up completely, the the resultant state is probably basic mind." Have you tried this? What was the result?

overmyhead - yes, I think that makes sense in context.

Good stuff, everyone!

"Once you identify the mind you have contrived mind. Basic mind -Not getting caught up in conceptual or discursive thought let phenomena rise and fall without labelling or being attached. "

Yeah, I think that's the right idea. Thanks.

The manner in which an objects in mind are differentiated beyond the sensory differences is contrived.

"The manner in which an objects in mind are differentiated beyond the sensory differences is contrived.

"

Interesting, Gary. Can you break that down a bit?

"
Mike - you wrote, "when one struggles to explain the difference between basic mind and contrived and realizes that it is impossible and just gives up completely, the the resultant state is probably basic mind." Have you tried this? What was the result?

"

Sure! But it is an empty type of mind similar to the effect of "no fixed position" and is impossible to explain. You just have to try it for yourself.

I wonder if it is possible to have an absolutely uncontrived mind. It seems to me that any kind of consciousness at all is contrived. Do you guys think the difference between basic/contrived mind is relative or absolute?

"I wonder if it is possible to have an absolutely uncontrived mind. It seems to me that any kind of consciousness at all is contrived. Do you guys think the difference between basic/contrived mind is relative or absolute?"

I'm lost.
I thought with "basic mind" we were kind of talking about "big mind" or "buddha mind" but now I'm not so sure.

Yeah, I think we have terminology proliferation and it's sometimes hard to keep track of what means what. It's an artifact of being able to talk intelligently about a bunch of traditions all at once. Being able to do that is new and cool but it can lead to some amount of confusion, can't it?

"I wonder if it is possible to have an absolutely uncontrived mind. It seems to me that any kind of consciousness at all is contrived. Do you guys think the difference between basic/contrived mind is relative or absolute?"

I wouldn't want an absolutely uncontrived mind. There was a time when I thought that was what I was supposed to be aiming at. Then, slowly, it dawned on me that there was no possible way to get there other than in very short snippets. This is the ago-old discussion about stopping thoughts. Stopping thoughts might be cool but that's not the point of practice. I want to experience the fullness of being human. Human beings have both contrived mind and basic mind. I practice to know deeply and appreciate the difference.

"
"I wonder if it is possible to have an absolutely uncontrived mind. It seems to me that any kind of consciousness at all is contrived. Do you guys think the difference between basic/contrived mind is relative or absolute?"

I wouldn't want an absolutely uncontrived mind. There was a time when I thought that was what I was supposed to be aiming at. Then, slowly, it dawned on me that there was no possible way to get there other than in very short snippets. This is the ago-old discussion about stopping thoughts. Stopping thoughts might be cool but that's not the point of practice. I want to experience the fullness of being human. Human beings have both contrived mind and basic mind. I practice to know deeply and appreciate the difference.

"

There is only one reason for 'stopping thoughts' (temporarily)-- and that is to glimpse the nature of mind-- what mind is BEFORE it gets busy doing its thing. This 'sighting', in turn, allows you to see the choices you make, all day, every day, about how mind 'does its thing'-- and to make different ones than you'd imagined were possible. To stop sleep-walking through your life. This is what we call freedom, or happiness, or enlightenment, or the natural state.

That's another great way to say it!

"There is only one reason for 'stopping thoughts' (temporarily)-- and that is to glimpse the nature of mind-- what mind is BEFORE it gets busy doing its thing. This 'sighting', in turn, allows you to see the choices you make, all day, every day, about how mind 'does its thing'-- and to make different ones than you'd imagined were possible. To stop sleep-walking through your life. This is what we call freedom, or happiness, or enlightenment, or the natural state."

This made me smile

"
I'm wondering if contrived mind, in this context, would include deep states of absorption.
"

It sure seems to me that any activity of mind can be "contrived". But every single moment of experience depends on and IS basic mind, too. You simply can't have water without wetness, no matter what the water is doing!

"This 'sighting', in turn, allows you to see the choices you make, all day, every day, about how mind 'does its thing'-- and to make different ones than you'd imagined were possible. To stop sleep-walking through your life. This is what we call freedom, or happiness, or enlightenment, or the natural state."

It seems like the farther one goes with this practice, the more the distinction between contrived and basic mind seems- well-- contrived! On the other hand, it's also indispensibly basic to the practice
I think this relates to what you're pointing to here Kate, in that each moment of mind-movement- any experience, basically-- can occur in oblivion of its own basic nature or else it can occur as clearly an expression or example of its basic state.
So the full humanness we wish to actualize through practice does seem to involve a deeper appreciation of this dynamic, rather than a choosing of one side or the other, as you point out above Chris.
Perhaps this is why in Mahamudra, a tradition closely related to Dzogchen, "ordinary mind" is a synonym for nature of mind: Because no mind-movement is possible at all without this basic, ordinary awareness. It's truly nothing special, or out of the ordinary, yet appreciating it seems to be a surefire way to be happy and free.

"It sure seems to me that any activity of mind can be "contrived". But every single moment of experience depends on and IS basic mind, too. You simply can't have water without wetness, no matter what the water is doing!"


Great point, Jake. And I like the metaphor, too. : )