Dissociative disorder and Witness

""As someone who has had many depression/anxiety induced dissociation/depersonalization, as well as one who is quite familiar with Witnessing practice, I can say with conviction that the two are most certainly not the same experience.
... As backwards as it may sound in terms of Eastern spiritual practices, one should have a very stable, healthy, definable sense of self prior to engaging in serious insight practices..."- Jackson

"One last comment -- I've been struggling for some time to deal with someone in my immediate family who has some very serious issues, like deep depression and related symptoms. This is very, very serious stuff, so I want folks to know I'm not downplaying those types of problems."- Chris "

Thanks for these personal sharings, and the others above. Very helpful for establishing context.
I admit I'm sympathetic to your point, Jackson. I think this is a chief contribution of Western civilization to wisdom traditions. The whole issue of psychodynamic ego vs. spirtitual ego, their nature and relationship, is a big one but this seems quite practical: to "be somebody before we be nobody".
Interestingly, a common element in much pathology (as I understand it) is lack of "executive functions" such as attentional stability and volition-- i.e., concentration!
This all said, what do we think of Adyashanti's oft repeated claim that he's met many well adjusted egos unready to awaken and many pathological egos ripe for it? Could this be a difference between practices which focus on recognizing the false self and those focused on recognizing the "true self"? What happens to the equation when buddha-nature comes into the practice, not just insight into samsaric mind?

One of my close family was diagnosed with Dissociative Disorder (dd) , researched it extensively before entering treatment for it and tried to introduce me to some of the basic issues. So, when I starting working with Disembedding recently it struck me that there may be a crucial difference between disembedding and dissociating. dd is usually comes from trauma pathology (PTSD). Those suffering have a trauma that overwhelms the ability to cope and so the injury is segragated from the sense of self and from awareness. Disembedding by contrast, unless I'm way off, is more like complete initimacy with no velcro. The one is a state of injury and the other is a process of healing.
That said, the ability to dissociate seems to run deep. I've spent a number of arduous hours in zen retreats trying with some sincerity to open/surrender to body, mind and emotions and have found that practice at times pretty touching and even healing. (An up side to the oft-maligned shikantaza.) It wasn't until I did my first metta retreat last year, though, that I discoverd a completely partitioned area of grief that had never surfaced before, and yet didn't seem to be far from the surface. I was amazed that I could hide something so explosive from consciousness. A Zen teacher wrote a fascinating article in NYT last year about horrible childhood traumas that remained dissociated even after 1st path and beyond. But eventually his practice combined with psychotherapy uncovered them. Anyone know that article?

Found it, Louis Nordstrum, www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/magazine/26zen-t.html

I'm going to go a bit out on a limb here and state what I believe based upon experience and not on studies or science.
The more disembedded I get from the sense of "me" the idea of "me" the needs of "me" -- the more I let go of all that and see it for the temporary., ever-changing thing it really is, the stronger I feel, the smarter I feel, the more secure I feel, the more sane I feel, the happier I feel.
As just a name for the phenomenon to myself I call it hooking up with "big mind" or Buddha mind" or "the universe" or "the sky."
who knows what it really is, or how it really works in a precise, scientific way, but it really seems like there is a huge, endless really wise and smart brain that I can access to the extent that I surrender.
Of course, the first few times one tries such a thing there is maybe some anxiety or fear of "losing"one's self, but if one takes the leap, everything is better than all right. Everytime.
When this happens "I" am still very much right here, but it is seen in it's proper perspective -- as a smaller, mischevious, constantly created and made up thing.

Mike, if you were here in front of me I'd hug you. You might not like it and maybe even punch me in the head, but I'd hug you anyway.

Beautiful, thanks.

"
Mike, if you were here in front of me I'd hug you. You might not like it and maybe even punch me in the head, but I'd hug you anyway.

"

LOLLERSKATES!!!

"Of course, the first few times one tries such a thing there is maybe some anxiety or fear of "losing"one's self, but if one takes the leap, everything is better than all right. Everytime. "

To make a general claim about a population one needs many data points, not a handful. You'll hear some 90 year olds tell you about how they smoked cigars and ate steak everyday of their lives and feel great!

Obviously meditation is not like that. On the average it seems that it is largely a safe and positive thing to do. But we really have no basis to confidently say that there is no possibility of risk of net negative outcomes for anyone (or even for specific populations like people who are considered psychologically healthy, or whatever). Or do we? If we do, where is the evidence? This is an empirical question that requires a scientific answer. Short of having conclusive evidence one way or the other, we really ought not to act as if we do, because that would be irresponsible.

"To make a general claim about a population one needs many data points, not a handful. You'll hear some 90 year olds tell you about how they smoked cigars and ate steak everyday of their lives and feel great!

Obviously meditation is not like that. On the average it seems that it is largely a safe and positive thing to do. But we really have no basis to confidently say that there is no possibility of risk of net negative outcomes for anyone (or even for specific populations like people who are considered psychologically healthy, or whatever). Or do we? If we do, where is the evidence? This is an empirical question that requires a scientific answer. Short of having conclusive evidence one way or the other, we really ought not to act as if we do, because that would be irresponsible."

Sorry, I meant to only talk about my own experience. If my post seemed like I was making some kind of scientific claim, I apologize.
I probably should have said that the first few times "I" tried such a thing.

mpavoreal, I thank you for that article link. I have say, however, that it doesn't match my experience very well. In my humble experience, the deeper one delves into not self the more intimate one becomes with one's own life. This was an unexpected revelation for me, but I have found it to be quite true, and quite wonderful.

brianm2, Mike appeared to me to be speaking from personal experience and not making an empirical claim about the vast population of meditators at large. His experience matches mine, so we now have a sample population of two

"Found it, Louis Nordstrum, www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/magazine/26zen-t.html
"

Interesting.
The article is about a VERY traumatized and dissociated person who then practiced zen, not about guy who practiced zen and then became traumitized and dissociated.
Sad story, I think.
His enlightenment experience sounds like A&P rather than a first path fruition, though I'm not certain of course.
But I can really see how it could happen that a traumatized over achiever could mimic the forms and practices of zen so well as to be considered a "zen master." while still being severely mentally-ill.
I'd love to get Stuart Lach's view of the article. I think I'll try to contact him.

"Interesting.
The article is about a VERY traumatized and dissociated person who then practiced zen, not about guy who practiced zen and then became traumitized and dissociated.
Sad story, I think.
His enlightenment experience sounds like A&P rather than a first path fruition, though I'm not certain of course.
But I can really see how it could happen that a traumatized over achiever could mimic the forms and practices of zen so well as to be considered a "zen master." while still being severly mentally-ill.
I'd love to get Stuart Lach's view of the article. I think I'll try to contact him."

Wow... that articles is something else. Made me think twice about my own motivations...

I often wonder if my ability to surrender comes from my early Christian experiences that possibly many others don't have.
I totally believed in Jesus and God when I was a kid. Totally. And, I used to have so much faith that I could easily surrender to Jesus and I'd always feel way better, healed even.
Then, later, when I bascially became an atheist, I thought about those times. If there wasn't a God, then what happened when I surrendered? The answer wasn't, of course, that there really was a God and my atheism was incorrect, the answer I came up with was that there was a specific mechanism in the brain that just responded positively with letting go, complete and utter surrender. So, one could do it based upon some kind of religious faith or, just do it. The results would be the same. (This is one of the reasons why religion is so popular with so many people -- faith can and does bring relief from suffering.)
Now, my best guess (no science!) as to why this happens is this:
Since the self isn't, in a certain sense real, it's needs and desires and points of view are always in conflict with reality thus creating suffering and a lot of delusions. When the self is let go of and it's importance dimished and put in it's proper perspective -- poof! -- basic suffering will go away and the world can be seen with more clarity. (sounds like buddhism)

"
mpavoreal, I thank you for that article link. I have say, however, that it doesn't match my experience very well. In my humble experience, the deeper one delves into not self the more intimate one becomes with one's own life. This was an unexpected revelation for me, but I have found it to be quite true, and quite wonderful.

brianm2, Mike appeared to me to be speaking from personal experience and not making an empirical claim about the vast population of meditators at large. His experience matches mine, so we now have a sample population of two

"

I believe you, thanks! It's tempting to go on about a psycho-spiritual idea when I get worked up about it, but it's mostly just conceptual.

In my case, that is. People so often speak from their experience here. I regret adding a some blather. 8^} Back to practicing.

I can relate to Mike, surrendering to Jesus used to be my practice. I dunno how to explain it in real lofty sounding ways but surrender today even just to whatever sensation is coming up is way more powerful. Although it has taken a long time to get to that point. As for mental issues I have had some experience along those lines... I was really only just coming out of a real dark time in my life before I started serious daily practice in december 09. I dunno I probably got into it just a little sooner than I would recommend others doing in similar circumstances. But its all worked out well. Its important not to confuse meditative progress with eliminating our psychological baggage--although I think everyone on this forum is grown up enough to know that...

Very interesting article. Seems like one of the downsides of Zen style is the room for misinterpretation. When I read this quotation:

'It was a far cry from the advice he'd gotten in 1987 from a Zen teacher who said, 'What you need to do, Lou, is put aside all human feelings.''

I can see how - applied skillfully - this could be exactly what noting practice is about. Learning to live with the normal ups and downs of life without carrying them as me and mine.

Similarly, Suzuki Roshi sometimes gets quoted as saying things like, "enlightenment is merely to be yourself," which - again, applied skillfully - could be a lot like surrender to the truth of things. But it could also be the continual reinforcement of wrong views and bad habits.

For someone with serious mental illness, misinterpretations like these would be more common, I would think, as well as more damaging.

"
'It was a far cry from the advice he'd gotten in 1987 from a Zen teacher who said, 'What you need to do, Lou, is put aside all human feelings.''

I can see how - applied skillfully - this could be exactly what noting practice is about. Learning to live with the normal ups and downs of life without carrying them as me and mine.
"


But, on the other hand, to play Devil's Advocate to my own point, this unnamed Zen teacher sounds a lot like a proponent of an anti-human, Superman enlightenment.

The Limited Emotional Range model strikes me as yet another aspect of Buddhism that could be seriously bad for someone with a psychological disorder(s). It's one thing to be confident in a healthy way that one can overcome repeated crippling by anger or fear or lust, and yet another thing entirely to regard that part of life as trash to be discarded (meaning probably repressed).

Sorry to be so speculative in those last two posts, rather than speaking from experience.

I appreciate the compassionate wisdom of cautioning unstable people not to get into vipassana, but in my experience, living with de-stabilizing insights of intensive retreat practice without continuing to practice was a sure-fire way to exacerbate my psychological troubles. Once I began to practice regularly, life got so much happier and healthier so quickly. Unfortunately, those 3 years earlier, I was scared to practice because I didn't want to make things worse. I believe this was a sad mistake.

At some point in the past, I looked into commentary on Actual Freedom, because some sort of big noise seemed to have happened around it on this & Dan Ingram's forum. I found, and lost track of, a very cogent critique pointing out that AF's founder was claiming to be-- permanently-- depersonalized and disidentified. And that this was 'BEYOND enlightenment' as an attainment. I bring this up as evidence that there is plenty of confusion about states that are considered pathological from the psychological POV and attainments by meditators. Maybe 'the Witness' is not so much 'second gear' as Neutral-- i.e., gears disengaged. Which, if you were stuck there, and trying to go somewhere / maneuver your vehicle could be both terrifying and dangerous.-- a metaphorical way of putting it, but I've always felt that it was a transitional expedient, and tricky for some types.

"... there is plenty of confusion about states that are considered pathological from the psychological POV and attainments by meditators."

Yes, I agree.

Also, I believe AF claims to rid human beings of emotion, which of course is very different than observing them from the transpersonal perspective of the witness. As you know, awakening is not about disassociation or the elimination of emotion. If anything, awakening is about the radical transformation that comes when we're truly intimate with our lives and our experience. Elimination of emotion is not something I would ever want.

The following is just for discussion purposes only. I think I am correct, but since I am not enlightened there is a great chance I am wrong. Please respond with divergent points of view.
Anyway: my idea of enlightenment is that in most fundamental ways EVERYTHING IS THE SAME. One has the same emotions, the same kinds of thoughts, the same desires, the same interests, the same basic tendancies, the same PAIN. The difference is one of perspective. Once the three characteristics are clearly seen, then all the stuff that has always gone on will keep going on except that there is no longer a sticky identification with it all, so all the stuff (objects, experience, whatever) can flow in and flow out without any friction.
Once "no-self" is clearly seen then there is no problem because the person sees that there never was such a person anyway. One doesn't associate or dissociate with the self, they just see it for the small, relatively insignicant thing that it is.
Sound reasonable or too fantastic?

(more opinion not fact:) I think a lot of the discomfort that might feel almost like mental illness that might happen through insight meditation is the result of not really being able to let go of a "self." Dissociation on a real mental illness level is from severe trauma, not meditation.

I don't know why I think this applies but there is a great part in the book "Ambivalent Zen" where they author is telling his zen teacher that he wants to take his practice to a "deeper level." and the teachers says something like "deeper? there is no 'deeper,' there is just this."
here is the actual quote:

I tell Kyodo Roshi I want to take my practice to a deeper level. "Deeper level?" He laughs again. "What do you mean, 'deeper'? Zen practice only one level. No deep, understand?"

I really like what you've wrote here. I think the "EVERYTHING IS THE SAME" part is especially important. Bearing that in mind, ego inflation is another danger that I think a lot of Advaita style people are falling into these days.

www.kheper.net/topics/gurus/inflation.html

"I really like what you've wrote here. I think the "EVERYTHING IS THE SAME" part is especially important. Bearing that in mind, ego inflation is another danger that I think a lot of Advaita style people are falling into these days.

www.kheper.net/topics/gurus/inflation.html "

Hi Mumuwu,

While there are some provocative and potentially useful ideas in the article you linked to above, they are buried within a cocoon of misunderstandings, misinformation, and unsubstantiated opinions. My humble suggestion would be to take lightly the ideas presented there pending your own personal exploration of the territory in question. In other words, enlightenment, as a natural phase of human evolution, makes most sense after you are there. Prior to that time, all the well-intended speculation in the world is of limited utility and can be downright counter-productive.

I happen to know, having talked to you the other day, that you are a sincere and dedicated yogi who is working every day to "find out" for himself. Keep up the good work and don't get too caught up in internet speculation or the evaluation of other people's supposed enlightenment! All of that stuff will work itself out in the wash.

Metta,

Kenneth

Thanks Kenneth. Once again, timely advice. Seems like the most worthwhile books I've read have been the ones telling me to sit down on the cushion and let things unfold.