Buddhist "Nirodha Samapatti" and Hindu "Nirvikalpa Samadhi"

Is "Nirodha Samapatti" the same as the Hindu "Nirvikalpa Samadhi"? Reading Daniel Ingrams description of it, it very much sounds so. If this'd be the case indeed, some interesting insights could actually be concluded. E.g. in the Kundalini-Yoga tradition, Nirvikalpa Samadhi is attained in the moment, the Kundalini has pierced the "bindu" ("point") which lies above the Sahasrar chakra.

Also note, that some newer scholars like Adi Da (Franklin Jones/Da Free John) mention that attaining Nirvikalpa Samadhi does not lead to real liberation (in his own words: it does not help you attain 7th stage realization).

"Is "Nirodha Samapatti" the same as the Hindu "Nirvikalpa Samadhi"? Reading Daniel Ingrams description of it, it very much sounds so. If this'd be the case indeed, some interesting insights could actually be concluded. E.g. in the Kundalini-Yoga tradition, Nirvikalpa Samadhi is attained in the moment, the Kundalini has pierced the "bindu" ("point") which lies above the Sahasrar chakra.

Also note, that some newer scholars like Adi Da (Franklin Jones/Da Free John) mention that attaining Nirvikalpa Samadhi does not lead to real liberation (in his own words: it does not help you attain 7th stage realization)."

Others might give you a better reply, but Nirvikalpa Samadhi comes with full awareness of the Self.

On the other hand, Nirodha Samapatti, in my understanding, lacks any awareness (have not experienced it but others here have), and this state is peculiar to 1st Gear only. If you're unfamiliar with Kenneth's gear system, do go through the articles on the left sidebar, and the Q&A on Non Dual.

Adi Da's 7th Stage realization is simply 3rd Gear, Non Dual. His 6th Stage is 2nd Gear, I AM/Witness.

He contrasted Nirvikalpa Samadhi (Absorption in Self/I AM/Witness) with Sahaj Samadhi (Non Dual Absorption). If we could link samadhis with gears, I suggest that Nirodha Samapatti is a 1st gear samadhi, Nirvikalpa Samadhi is a 2nd gear samadhi, while Sahaj Samadhi is a 3rd gear samadhi.

Reference: www.beezone.com/AdiDa/7Stages/7_stages_of_life.html

tremendously interesting...thx xsurf!

I found Adi Da's article interesting as well, because he differentiated 'Nirvikalpa Samadhi' of the 5th Stage with 'Jnana Samadhi' of the 6th Stage. I find this distinction important even though not many teachers pointed it out (or at least the distinction between the Experience part and the Realization part wasn't so clearly delineated). Even though both are the same experience of Self, he differentiated them because the 5th Stage is simply an Absorption, an Experience of Self, however it marks the beginning of 2nd gear practice. 6th Stage 'Jnana Samadhi' has to do with Self-Realization. The experience does not mean Self-Realization. I had many 2nd gear glimpses and experiences of the Witness/I AM before the Realization of Self dawned on me... it is the unshakeable, doubtless certainty of Being and the realization of what 'I' am... nobody can shake you out of your insight because the sense of existence, that which I AM, is so vividly clear and undeniable. It is this realization of 'You' that is crucial for self-realization.

According to Adi Da, neither attainment of Nirvikalpa Samadhi (in or according to the 5th stage of practice) nor ofJnana Samadhi (in or according to the 6th stage of practice) automatically leads to self-realization. That's very important to understand. You can experience both, but none of them with certainty will necessarily lead to self-realization (which is, if I understand him correctly) entry into the 7th stage of practice.

(Also note that Adi Da NEVER acknowledged anyone in his own organization to have reached 7th stage realization. Except, well, himself. I personally believe that this is actually due to a certain sectarian grandeuse which can hardly be denied inspecting his behaviour and his organisation deeply. So there is a big gap between what he tells in his books and his real behaviour.)

According to Adi Da, Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the product of manipulation of energy and mind, resulting in the Kundalini to rise beyond the Sahasrar. Whereas Jnana Samadhi is the result of the manipulation of attention whereas consciousness is sucked inside leading also to (a different kind of) samadhi. Both do not necessarily lead to liberating insight.

There is an ongoing discussion amongst Hindu scholars whether attainment of Nirvikalpa Samadhi is a necessary precondition for liberation or not. Ramana Maharshi denied it, also does Adi Da. Other scholars (which Adi Da probably would categorize as teachers of the 5th stage) do implicitly claim that Nirvikalpa Samadhi is actually the same as self-realization. But there does not seem to be any consensus on this. Many Hindu scholars are actually pretty vague about this subject.

Thus, in my eyes attainment of Nirvikalpa Samadhi somehow resembles texts about Nirodha Samapatti: It seems to be mainly the result of intense concentration practices and does not necessarily lead to liberating insight.

Yes, Adi Da claims to be the first and only person who achieved 7th Stage. However, this wasn't what happened initially. I have read that there was a time where he still accepted that certain teachings and teachers belonged to the 7th Stage category. As time went by, he selectively removed persons/teachers/teachings from the list, until he eventually became the One And Only 7th Stage Realizer. Apart from sectarian grandeuse, we should also consider that Adi Da was teaching the Bhakti yoga kind of path, where his devotees need to drop all self-effort and surrender their entire being (sense of self) to Him. It could very well work, I don't know, having not practiced this path, but this could also be the reason why Adi Da wanted to over-claim certain things in exchange for total worship. It could be a kind of intentional 'white lie'.

However being outside Adi Da's group and thus being able to see with unbiased eyes, I can clearly see that there are many teachers who described the 7th stage realization. The 7th Stage realization is clearly what Kenneth described as the 3rd Gear.

As for the various samadhis, going by Adi Da's own words, "The highest extreme of the ascent of attention is called 'nirvikalpa samadhi,' or total Absorption of self-consciousness in Radiant Transcendental Consciousness."

I call this, the experience of Self. Note that this is totally absent in Nirodha Samapatti (a form of thorough Cessation) which distinctly belongs to 1st gear, which is characterized by a lack of any consciousness whatsoever, much less the self-consciousness of a Radiant Transcendental Consciousness.

Furthermore the article states, "Nirvikapla samadhi occurs via absorption in the Divine, whereas jnana samadhi occurs via exclusive identification with the Divine."

This is what I mean by the difference between absorption/experience of Self, with the Realization of Self that is known as 'Awakening to the Transcendental Self'.

Even this realization is not the final 'Self-Realization' of the 7th Stage which is the realization of Self not as Transcendent of phenomena, but as non-dual with all phenomena. All phenomena are the self-radiance of Consciousness. This is the 7th Stage or Kenneth's 3rd Gear.

Whether 6th or 7th stage is liberation is totally perspectival. When one experiences Stage 5 or 6, one feels totally free from the exclusive identification to finite objects. One feels a great sense of freedom and release from being identified with a personal self. One feels transcendental and great.

But when one experiences Stage 7, then even that previous 'liberation' pales in comparison. So the next phase becomes considered as 'liberation'. There could very well be even deeper liberations than that...

"Yes, Adi Da claims to be the first and only person who achieved 7th Stage. However, this wasn't what happened initially. I have read that there was a time where he still accepted that certain teachings and teachers belonged to the 7th Stage category. As time went by, he selectively removed persons/teachers/teachings from the list, until he eventually became the One And Only 7th Stage Realizer. Apart from sectarian grandeuse, we should also consider that Adi Da was teaching the Bhakti yoga kind of path, where his devotees need to drop all self-effort and surrender their entire being (sense of self) to Him. It could very well work, I don't know, having not practiced this path, but this could also be the reason why Adi Da wanted to over-claim certain things in exchange for total worship. It could be a kind of intentional 'white lie'."

Yeah, I agree. It's a little strange if you follow his writings where in the beginning phase of his teachings he claims at least Ramana Maharshi to be a 7th stage realizer and as time goes by he ends up claiming himself to be Jesus Christ 2nd edition (literally!). But that's beside the point in my eyes, I still think he had really good insights into practice.

""The highest extreme of the ascent of attention is called 'nirvikalpa samadhi,' or total Absorption of self-consciousness in Radiant Transcendental Consciousness.""

Now, this is really subtle. All I will say now is just how I personally understood Adi Da's writings. I might have a wrong understanding. So you have been warned.

Adi Da developed a view according to which there are 2 main "structures" in man: The vertical and the horizontal. The vertical corresponds to the chakras and the arising Kundalini force. In 4th stage practices, the Kundalini is brought up unto the Ajna chakra. These are the teachings mainly concerned with physical and emotional Yoga. Phenomenal experiences of the yogi mainly concern experiences of inner heat, spontaneous kriyas (movements of limbs), energy moving up the spine etc. The experiences are mainly bound to physical or psycho-physical objects like body//life energy.

In the 5th stage practices, the Kundalini is brought even further piercing all the infinite levels between Ajna Chakra and Sahasrar. Experiences are mainly internal. They include seeing geometrical patterns, archetypal figures, lights etc. These are mainly experiences of subtle mind objects where the outer world is not anymore experienced. In the moment, the Kundalini breaks through the Sahasrar, a shining light can be seen coming from a "sun" infinitely above shining into ones headspace. This, if I understand properly, is the archetypal first of all mind objects. When the Kundalini rises beyond this point and pierces the bindu, one enters spontaneously into Nirvikalpa Samadhi, where all experiences whatsoever are extinguished.

To be continued...

Nirvikalpa Samadhi might last a long time or a short time, but whatever time it lasts, one finally falls back to ones normal state of mind. It's not lasting. It does not extinguish the feeling of a seperate entity which is called "I".

Thus, Jnana Yoga (6th stage practice) does not even bother about pushing the Kundalini through the Sahasrar, since the "I-thought" is prior to the whole structure or process of an arising Kundalini. The Jnana yogi simply inquires into the nature of "I". This is all to be done. And this directly corresponds to penetrating the causal knot of beingness. The horizontal structure of man lies in the three hearts:
1. the physical heart at the left side of the chest which corresponds to the physical body. This is connected to the awake state of consciousness.
2. the heart chakra in the middle of the chest which corresponds to the subtle or mind body. This is connected to the dream state of consciousness.
3. the causal heart at the right side of the chest which corresponds to the causal body (or "pure I-thought" - the root of individuality so to say). This is connected to the deep sleep state.
The Jnana yogi is thus not concerned about an arising Kundalini, since this will not penetrate the I-though anyway. Rather, he, by practicing self-enquiriy, withdraws consciousness from gross and subtle objects altogether and inspects the feeling of "I".

This might lead to Jnana samadhi, where all his consciousness is sucked inside finally coming to rest at the causal heart at right side of the chest. But this experience neither leads to understanding or realizing the self, because it doesn't and cannot undo his original motivation of finding a solution to the conceived problem of existence.

To be continued...

Whereas the Kundalini yogi believes to have to leave the body-mind behind, the Jnana yogi believes to have to leave the I-thought behind. They basically both start from a position of problem to be solved. It is this very motivation that prevents self-realization or entry into the 7th stage.

Only when this motivation can be dropped and reality is understood to be utterly unproblematic always and already can entry into the 7th stage occurr. (Compare this to the Zen's saying of passing a gateless gate or certain of the highest Dzogchen teachings where everything is said to be perfect already.)

As far as I understand it, Nirvikalpa Samadhi according to Adi Da thus means resting in the Self as in deep sleep - which is unconsciously. It won't help you. That's why I threw up the question whether Nirvikalpa samadhi and Nirodha Samapatti are the same.
According to Adi Da, Nirvikalpa samadhi actually cannot be the same as stream entry (reaching nirvana for the first time where your individual consciousness is said to unite with the Unborn for a short moment), since it does not lead to entry into the 7th stage of life.

But here Adi Da might disagree with more traditional Hindu scholars who more seem to agree with xsurf's point of view according to which Nirvikalpa samadhi is equivalent to reaching self-realization. In this case, Nirvikalpa samadhi would actually be the same as stream entry.

Nope, I do not consider Nirvikalpa Samadhi as equivalent to Self-Realization. Based on the description of Adi Da, I consider Nirvikalpa Samadhi as simply a temporary experience of Self, but not the realization of Self. I consider Adi Da's '6th Stage' or 'Jnana Samadhi' as Self-Realization. However, there are further Realizations. 6th Stage is the realization of the Transcendental Self, but not the realization of Non Dual Awareness (7th Stage/3rd Gear).

Adi Da did not indicate that 5th Stage Nirvikalpa is an unconscious experience. It specifically stated that self-consciousness is present, and absorbed in Divine. Nirodha Samapatti is more like self-consciousness is blotted out. Yes, in Nirvikalpa Samadhi consciousness is withdrawn from forms, such that one is self-consciously Absorbed Only in the Divine Consciousness. In other words, you are only Aware of Awareness Itself. Experiences of I AM or the Cosmic Consciousness can be resulted from Kundalini awakenings. This is not yet Self Realization as I see it, more like an experience of Self. But this is also definitely not Nirodha Samapatti.

Also, I certainly do not think that Nirvikalpa Samadhi or Jnana Samadhi is related to stream entry. It seems to be very different. A stream enterer will not talk about Self-Realization, realizing Divine Consciousness and so on. They have different insights, particularly insights into the three characteristics of phenomena. I prefer Kenneth's approach to separate them into distinct gears. Stream Entry (to Arhatship) and Nirodha Samapatti is a 1st gear attainment, Nirvikalpa Samadhi and Jnana Samadhi belongs to the 2nd gear. Sahaj Samadhi or Adi Da's 7th Stage belongs to 3rd gear. Though, to add to the confusion I should note that at least in Daniel Ingram's description of Anagami, he links Non Dual insight with Anagami (though having no mentions of the I AM/Jnana Samadhi as having any relation to the path of insight).

Dropping motivation to do anything to alter the perfection of this moment sounds like third gear description - kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/3rd+Gear

Also, the previous gears or stages prior to Non Dual are not 'necessary', but often an important stepping stone. They provide invaluable insights that serves as 'foundation' for Non Dual insight to occur.

I'm also be interested to hear Kenneth's comments about this.