The third noble truth: does it equal fruition, cessation, path?

I guess this is obvious, right?
The buddha taught about how to end suffering. First he said that dukkha was our condition, then he said why we suffered (desire, craving, ignorance of the three characteristics, etc) , and then that there was a state (cessation, nirvana) in which suffering was eliminated, and then he laid out a path to get nirvana or the end of suffering.
That is basically it, I think. (there is so much more to buddhism of course and so much to debate and argue over and disagree about) but this seems to be the basic thing, right?
Okay, so, developmental insight, vipassana, the maps, teaches how to get to cessation. Period.
That's how I see it. First gear, vipassana, is a direct, non-cluttered method to integrate the fourth noble truth (the eightfold path) in such a way as to realize the third noble truth.
And this is my disconnect with 90 percent of the dharma I encounter, because 90 percent of the dharma I enounter isn't about a balls out drive to eliminate suffering, it's about a lot of wonderful interesting stuff, but not that.
Am I right?
Feel free to ignore , agree, or clue me in.
I love you all.

Hey MM, I rarely feel comfortable speaking for everyone here, but in this one instance I will: we love ya back big guy!

Now, to the part where I'm speaking for just myself again: yes, I would agree with your assessment of Buddhism. If Buddha was ever pressed to be as concise as possible about his teaching he would narrow it down to just the 1st & the 3rd Noble Truths: i.e. "There is suffering and there is the cessation of Suffering."

I'll gladly leave the particulars of what suffering is and how to accomplish it's cessation to those here who know better. But that's about the size of it; Buddha's core teaching seems big and small at the same time.

On the topic of the cessation of suffering, I'd like to add a question of my own: how is the cessation which occurrs during a path or fruition different from the cessation which occurs when you enter the arupa jhanas? How does the practitioner tell one from the other?

"how is the cessation which occurrs during a path or fruition different from the cessation which occurs when you enter the arupa jhanas? How does the practitioner tell one from the other?" ~Mark

Your question reminded me of something I read at the end of Pa Auk Sayadaw's book, The Practice Which Leads To Nibbana*. He writes...

"It must be also pointed out that there is no cessation of consciousness when one realises the unconditioned state of Nibbana. The Path consciousness and Fruition consciousness both have as their object the unconditioned state, which is Nibbana.

"The only time that consciousness can be suspended is during the attainment of Nirodha Samapatti which is only attainable by Arahantas and Anagamis who also have attained the eight attainments consisting of the four rupa jhanas and the four arupa jhanas. So that to say that "Consciousness ceased" or the "mind ceased" as some meditators report is not possible or in accordance with the real attainment of nibbana."

So, I guess that's one possible answer to your question, from a conservative Burmese Theravadin point of view.

~Jackson

* www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/nibbana1.pdf

Thanks both of you.

There is an interview on the "Sounds True" website with a guy who studies Tibetan Buddhism named Reggie Ray
Mr. Ray is grilled by the interviewer on whether or not he is "enlightened" and Ray tells her that enlightenment does NOT exist and that the Buddha never talked about enlightenment (so he wasn't going to either).
Now, in way, I can see what he is saying. Did the buddha only promise the end of suffering and not something c alled enlightenment?
That's fine with me, and if it is true I kind of think of the "enlightenment" we talk about here as the insight that can be attained that causes suffering to end. -- so, same thing.

I am not 4th path--but my impression is that the 3rd noble truth might mean an end to unsatifaction based on delusion. Painful things will still arise but some level of delusion surrounding them will be removed

I felt like Reggie's answer to that question was a cop-out. He knows better than to suggest that the Buddhist path is all about resolving trauma, as he presents it in that interview. Maybe he really doesn't believe that awakening is possible, but I doubt it. It sounds more like shroom-growing to me.

"I felt like Reggie's answer to that question was a cop-out. He knows better than to suggest that the Buddhist path is all about resolving trauma, as he presents it in that interview. Maybe he really doesn't believe that awakening is possible, but I doubt it. It sounds more like shroom-growing to me."

the entire trauma section did just seem like an odd tangent -- I can see how a lot of dharma types would love that kind of teaching though. Didn't he also talk about doing "dark cave" work or something like that?

"On the topic of the cessation of suffering, I'd like to add a question of my own: how is the cessation which occurrs during a path or fruition different from the cessation which occurs when you enter the arupa jhanas? How does the practitioner tell one from the other?"

Hi Mark,

I don't experience any of the arupa jhanas as cessation. The 7th jhana, "no-thingness," is not a cessation, it is rather the conscious experience of "nothing" or "no-thing" as object. Neither is the 8th jhana, the jhana of "neither perception nor non-perception" a cessation of consciousness. It's an odd state, difficult or impossible to describe, but it is not cessation. Cessation is unambiguous. Your mind is offline. You are out like a light.

Interesting that Pau Auch Sayadaw does not consider cessation to be Nibbana. I'm not familiar with his work, so maybe I'm missing some nuance of language. Some Buddhist teachers in both Theravada and other traditions do not accept the Mahasi formulation that cessation equals Nibbana. For me, it's not such an important point; there are various significant phenomena and I don't feel very invested in which one is tagged as "Nibbana."

"Interesting that Pau Auch Sayadaw does not consider cessation to be Nibbana. I'm not familiar with his work, so maybe I'm missing some nuance of language. Some Buddhist teachers in both Theravada and other traditions do not accept the Mahasi formulation that cessation equals Nibbana. For me, it's not such an important point; there are various significant phenomena and I don't feel very invested in which one is tagged as "Nibbana.""

It is interesting, huh? I think it comes from the Abhidhamma literature, which considers "nibbana" to be a supramundane "dhamma". If nibbana is a supramundane dhamma, it must (they suggest) be cognized by a supramundane consciousness. Weird.

However describe, I think the experience is the same. Whether we say that consciousness apprehends a nibbana dhamma, or that the mind simply winks out, the experience (or non-experience) is still void of nama and rupa in the conventional sense.

OK, geek mode is switching off now B-)

As for the Buddha not talking about enlightenment, that is a curious statement indeed. The Pali Buddha was all about arahats. Not sure what Reggie Ray is getting at here.

Jack Kornfield loves to tell a story about an encounter the Buddha had with some wayfarers shortly after his awakening. It's all over the web. I Google searched it just now and found this:

When the Buddha started to wander around India shortly after his enlightenment, he encountered several men who recognized him to be a very extraordinary being.
They asked him, "Are you a god?"
"No," he replied.
"Are you a reincarnation of god?"
"No," he replied.
"Are you a wizard, then?"
"No."
"Well, are you a man?"
"No."
"So what are you?" they asked, being very perplexed.
"I am awake."
Buddha means "The Awakened One". How to awaken is all he taught.

"As for the Buddha not talking about enlightenment, that is a curious statement indeed. The Pali Buddha was all about arahats. Not sure what Reggie Ray is getting at here.

Jack Kornfield loves to tell a story about an encounter the Buddha had with some wayfarers shortly after his awakening. It's all over the web. I Google searched it just now and found this:

When the Buddha start to wander around India shortly after his enlightenment, he encountered several men who recognized him to be a very extraordinary being.
They asked him, "Are you a god?"
"No," he replied.
"Are you a reincarnation of god?"
"No," he replied.
"Are you a wizard, then?"
"No."
"Well, are you a man?"
"No."
"So what are you?" they asked, being very perplexed.
"I am awake."
Buddha means "The Awakened One". How to awaken is all he taught."

And to "awaken" would be to see things well enough to be able to stop suffering?

"It is interesting, huh? I think it comes from the Abhidhamma literature, which considers "nibbana" to be a supramundane "dhamma". If nibbana is a supramundane dhamma, it must (they suggest) be cognized by a supramundane consciousness. Weird.

However describe, I think the experience is the same. Whether we say that consciousness apprehends a nibbana dhamma, or that the mind simply winks out, the experience (or non-experience) is still void of nama and rupa in the conventional sense.

OK, geek mode is switching off now B-)"

Your "geek mode" has button? Nice.

What are you then when it is switched off? Some super cool shallow dude? If someone waved a Trycycle magazine in your face when it was switched off would you not recognize it? Do you lose IQ points? Does your pocket protector disintegrate? I could go on.
(note: I don't have a switch because I am not a geek)

There is nothing quite so cool as to be a geek that is awake.

"
There is nothing quite so cool as to be a geek that is awake.

"

It's hip to be square.

B-)

Coincidentaly, I just picked up a Trycycle mag and the super glossy back-page ad is for a special meditators clock called an "enso Clock." ("The enso ring is slowly drawn on-screen as the timer counts down, freeing your thoughts from distracting numbers and times" !!)
Is this product geeky or super cool?

Is this it?

www.salubrion.com/products/ensoclock/

"
Is this it?

www.salubrion.com/products/ensoclock/

"

That's it.
A steal at $99!

Sick!

I really like that.

Maybe a steal. Maybe a ripoff. I used to use an old kitchen timer. You turn the dial to the amount of time you want to sit and when that amount of time passes it goes "DING!!!" It always made me hungry. Or I sometimes would use my phone. More often than not these days I don't use a timer. I just wing it. I call this "roughing it"

I use this one sometimes. Sounds nice!

www.insightmeditationcenter.org/meditation-timers/

"I don't experience any of the arupa jhanas as cessation. The 7th jhana, "no-thingness," is not a cessation, it is rather the conscious experience of "nothing" or "no-thing" as object. Neither is the 8th jhana, the jhana of "neither perception nor non-perception" a cessation of consciousness. It's an odd state, difficult or impossible to describe, but it is not cessation. Cessation is unambiguous. Your mind is offline. You are out like a light."

Thank you for the excellent and clear response. I remember you mentioning in one of your audio lectures that when you attained 1st Path in Asia, it experiencially seems as though you "fell asleep" for a brief time and then revived and realized that you'd just attained 1st Path. I see now from what you are saying how the arupa Jhanas would be totally different in their experiencial makeup. -Thanks.