Some questions concerning Jhanas

I do have a few questions concerning the Jhanas.

1. During my past retreat, my teacher insisted that it is in fact really not necessary to practice the Samatha-Jhanas for attainment of Arahatship. Since he is a respectable teacher with >40 years of meditation experience, I do believe him. But what still is confusing to me is the idea that attachement to formless or pure land realms, which - amongst others - falls away with reaching Arahatship actually CAN fall away withouth even having got to know them practicing deep concentration states. I mean, shouldn't you actually get to know those deep states before you are able let fall your attachement to them?

2. He also said that to reach deep concentration states for him was not very easy. However, I personally believe myself to have reached at least the Jhana of infinite space even before stream-entry. You know, I just started out meditating, not really knowing what I did. In the beginning I (unknowingly) did a lot of concentrative meditation leading to absorption states. I at any time now can locate the special "feeling" of infinite space, it's always accessible. Is this common or do I belong to a rare species of people? Be aware also that even though I can always locate infinite space, I am not sure about whether I am actually able also to locate the lower Jhanas. (I think I can, but I am not sure.)

3. During my Samatha-meditation my senses to the outer world are never completely shut down. Always, even if quite far away, I still sense the outer world. Is my concentration just not deep enough? There does not seem to exist agreement on this point.

4. Is it actually more useful to practice Vipassana meditation WITH deep Samatha-Jhanas or does this not matter at all? Is there any advantage in first going into deep absorption states and then practice insight meditation or is there no advantage to this? (And what are the arising and passing objects then?)

Hi fckw,

1.) If you're using classical models to define arahantship, that you can trust your teacher. The Buddha of the Pali canon acknowledged that one need not have access to any jhanas to attain the Deathless. Practically speaking, I think your teacher is right. Both options (with or without strong jhana skills) can lead to awakening, and it's up to the practitioner and their teacher to decide which route is best for them.

2.) I don't know that accessing a feeling of infinite space is the same thing as the jhana of infinite space. In my opinion, the jhanas - just like the progress of insight - are states that can be accessed and explored using traditional instructions. If you would like to see if you can access the rupa jhanas, and then work your way up to the arupa jhanas, you should do so. Speculating whether or not what you're accessing now is some kind of jhana isn't all that helpful until you have experience to know how the jhana system works.

3.) My sense hardly ever completely shut down either. It happens occasionally, but I don't think that it's necessarily supposed to happen. It depends on who you consider to be the authority on jhana. The jhanas taught in the Pali canon were not hard absorptions, as both the Buddha and Sariputta gave descriptions where they were able to access any particular jhana and then investigate their experience to gain insight. If one is so absorbed in jhana that they are no longer discerning, in my opinion they've gone too deep. Thus, I'm more a fan of "Sutta jhana" than "Visuddhimagga jhana," to use Richard Shankman's terminology.

(continued below)

(continued from above)

4.) Traditionally speaking, the reason one should gain access concentration or even 1st jhana before practicing vipassana is to suppress the Five Hindrances. With the hindrances suppressed, one is able to remain focused on the task with less bodily or mental discomfort, and thus practice more effectively. I'm a fan of combining the two when possible. It's like this: if you're driving really fast down the freeway, it can be difficult to notice the more detailed aspects of the scenery. To get a really good sense of your environment, it's good to stop the car, get out and go for a walk. That's what gaining strong concentration is like. The more subtle level of sensory phenomena is easier to notice when concentration is stronger. That is, as long as it doesn't get TOO strong. It's a balancing act, really. It takes time to figure out for one's self.

Best!
~Jackson

Okay, thanks for your answer. Yeah, I know Shankman's book, it's a jewel. There you also can see that different teachers don't seem to agree fully on the point of completely shutting down the outer sense experiences.

Usually, when doing Vipassana I, as you recommend it, keep some concentration and based on this I then do insight meditation. It's just easier cause your mind doesn't tend to go everywhere like a monkey. But I was just wondering if there is any usefulness in going really deep into concentration states (let's say the Jhana of infinite consciousness) and then do insight meditation. Personally, I cannot see the point. SOME concentration is fine, but A LOT of concentration can become a hindrance for mindfulness. Would be nice to hear any other oppinions on this point.

(As it seems there are huge differences between people when it comes to meditation and stuff. My teacher told me of the time he was a monk. There came a man, starting meditation from scratch, reaching stream entry after 3 weeks of meditation practice. When Sri Aurobindo was told that it should be somehow helpful to stay in a state without thoughts, he simply stopped thoughts and remained in this state nonstop for 3 days.)

"I cannot see the point. SOME concentration is fine, but A LOT of concentration can become a hindrance for mindfulness. Would be nice to hear any other oppinions on this point."

I agree with this, fckw. Concentration is not the ultimate objective of practice. In fact, if the jhanas do become of the object of our practice then we're more likely to miss the main point, which is to wake up.

"But I was just wondering if there is any usefulness in going really deep into concentration states (let's say the Jhana of infinite consciousness) and then do insight meditation. Personally, I cannot see the point. SOME concentration is fine, but A LOT of concentration can become a hindrance for mindfulness. Would be nice to hear any other oppinions on this point." ~fckw

Yes, there is some usefulness in going deep(er) into jhana for the purpose of gaining insight. I think Kenneth's "20 Strata of Mind" model is a good pointer for this discussion. Let's suppose that there really are various strata of mind available to all of us, regardless of whether or not we can access them. Then, let's suppose that the Buddha was right when he taught that craving/clinging/attachment is the cause of suffering. If so, than it would be practical to access all of the available strata of mind in order to see them clearly and de-embed from (i.e. cultivation dispassion for) their specific characteristics. Accessing states is nice and all, but cutting off craving for them is what brings freedom. We may access and de-embedded from these states because they are a part of our psycho-physical make-up, and doing so brings freedom. That's the working hypothesis, at least.

This is an example of how concentration can be used wisely. An unwise use of concentration would be to use states as a distraction from suffering, rather than a vehicle to end suffering. It's up to each and every individual to keep their motivations wise, and not to fall into the trap of blissing out instead of doing the work that will ultimately lead to more freedom and happiness than any temporary state can provide.

~Jackson

"I agree with this, fckw. Concentration is not the ultimate objective of practice. In fact, if the jhanas do become of the object of our practice then we're more likely to miss the main point, which is to wake up." ~Chris

I don't know if one is more likely to miss the point if they are focused on cultivating jhana. It really comes down to "why" they're cultivating jhana. Jhanas are a part of some paths, and not a part of others. I don't think it's an either/or type of thing, but rather more of an issue of wise or unwise. Just my opinion.

P.S. And yes, I wholeheartedly agree that concentration states are NOT the point of the practice. That's not to say that they can't be effectively used as an integral and important aspect of one's path.

"I don't know if one is more likely to miss the point if they are focused on cultivating jhana. It really comes down to "why" they're cultivating jhana. Jhanas are a part of some paths, and not a part of others. I don't think it's an either/or type of thing, but rather more of an issue of wise or unwise. Just my opinion."

I wasn't very clear, Jackson. What I was trying to say was that if the practice is aimed at *just* getting deeper into jhanic states and enjoying that *for its own sake* then the chances are greater that other things, important things, will be missed.

"I wasn't very clear, Jackson. What I was trying to say was that if the practice is aimed at *just* getting deeper into jhanic states and enjoying that *for its own sake* then the chances are greater that other things, important things, will be missed." ~Chris



Thanks for the clarification.