Attaining Fruition After Attaining to 2nd Path

Hello everyone,

So I recently attained to 2nd Path and made a resolution to spend one month simply experiencing life as a 2nd pather (I've been wanting to write a lot of my experiences, not to mention wanting to get a hold of many aspects of my life that were neglected somehow during the foot race of path attainment). One of the main things I want to do is to have a very constructive Review stage where I can go and re-visit all the insight stages in order to do further study of them, specially the fruition state. When I attained to 1st path I was so pumped that I decided to skip the Review stage and plunge into cycling again, so I don't have experience reviewing stages after attainment. One of my concerns is that I'm hesitant to do Vipassana because I do not want to accidentally start up a cycle and get the "ride" going full force again. I have simply been doing Samatha meditation since path attainment. Any type of advice would be greatly appreciated!

Metta!
JF

JF, let's back up and start from the beginning. Tell us about your practice, with lots of careful details, and get some feedback from the other members about where you may be on the maps. As our community grows, I'd like to be especially careful about documenting progress step by step rather than having people make claims in their initial posts. If we are to have any shred of credibility in the larger contemplative community, it will be important for us to carefully document our claims with descriptions of our own experience. Once it is obvious to everyone here that you have a legitimate claim to 2nd Path, we can get down to the important business of answering your questions.

Looking forward to hearing about your practice!

Kenneth

PART I
Hey Kenneth! (and everyone else)
At this time, I had been having some 'migraine-like' headaches ever since the dark nite days, and even though the pain was absurdly strong, I felt ok about it (I guess strong equanimity?). One day during meditation I felt 2 small 'pops' followed by another 2 more, they were barely noticeable, so I did not make a big deal about it. I don't really remember if my headache went away right after that, or during the meditation of a few hours after that but it was certainly gone the same day. Another session later the same day I noticed myself hitting Jhanas in an uncannily strong way, and was jumping within them at will. Certainly my already strong concentration was feeling even stronger and refined, entering the 7-8 Jhana in a stable way for once. All I kept telling myself was 'well, if I have reached stream entry, congrats Jorge, but we are continuing to push forward regardless'. Later that night, I said I would try to see if I can go higher than the 8th Jhana (I went ahead and remember your story about reaching the Pure Land Jhanas) I figured my concentration is so strong, why not give it a shot. I hit the PL1, (quite stable to my surprise) and as I tried to reach higher I entered a very cloudy and foggy unstable state, and then after that I had the most amazing A&P experience I could imagine (I'd be glad to expand on it if anyone cares to hear about it, it was A&P nevertheless). I noticed day after day a very small and subtle, yet profound changed in my perception of myself and the world around me afterwards, change that was very hard to notice when I found myself going thru another dark nite (this is really when my wish for further investigation and review of the cycle started to be born).

PART II
About a week after that I found myself back in equanimity, and this time, I could differentiate almost perfectly different maturity levels of equanimity seen on Ingram's map. Again the gut feeling of something special about to happen was present, yet to be totally honest, I felt like I was missing something, and the idea of repeating the cycle without attaining new path was not sitting well with me. I don't know if the cycle repeated or if I 'slipped back' but I lost equanimity after a short A&P event. I remember the whole 'practice at this time shall be about constancy, and not heroics) so I decided to make my practice all-dry (all Vipassana). This time my noticing became a lot more detailed, and my awareness when observing the 3 characteristics was keen and precise (I found myself falling asleep during meditation, but I would continue to note: thought, thought, sensation, image, 'oh crap' dream, oh, thought, thought; and would wake up and continue without interruption. It was during these days when I was meditating and as I was observing the sensation vibrate, as it started to disappear I felt like I had sort of 'penetrated' its nature and I felt it diminish with ALL my awareness, as if falling down a cliff then nothing happened and almost instantly afterwards I felt this gargantuan pops!, 4 in total. I had no doubt of my experience of fruition and my attaining to 2nd path at that time.

PART III
Now I have noticed a pretty substantial shift in my perception, like a weight taken off my shoulders. I often now wonder how I was able to live under so much 'weight'. I'm finding to have a 'teflon mind' (using Nikolai's terms here!) for a few things, and how things that used to really affect me have lost considerable grip into what is left of the 'self'. There is a sense of the ride being partially done, like what was done is done and never again to be needed to be done, and that equally whatever is left to be done will be certainly done and over with in the near future.
Now I'm taking about a month 'off' in order to examine the place I'm at right now (I've been meaning to write a lot of my experiences and I just haven't gotten the time, I would like to pay a lot of attention into those things that have fundamentally changed in me, and go over the stages, particularly investigate fruition. I also promised a friend I would help him translate some dharma-related info ). I have made a resolution not to continue with searching for higher path at this time. I just don't want to have an 'oopsie' and continue riding before I go ahead and do some of these things mentioned above.

Sorry for the long description. This is actually an edited version of what I wrote this morning! 

Metta!

Jorge Freddy

"Teflon Mind (using Nikolai's terms here!) "

I actually stole that term from Kenneth. He said it some time back in one of his articles I think. He is the one coming up with the cool analogies!

You mention "what was left of the self". I kind of know what that feels like. Like the sense of self becomes smaller or the space in the head feels much more spacious. Wierd perceptual shifts indeed. I was a big believer in the whole "eradicate" the self way of thinking. Good kind people from here like Kenneth pointed out thart this is not really the case. You don't eradicate the sense of self ever in the awakening process. You gradually see it for what it truly is and has been all a long.

Also, to give people a better idea of where you are, Jorge, and in line with how Kenneth wishes to keep the site aimed at (for credibility reasons), from now on it might be a good idea to drop all the naming of things like this jhana and that jhana, this fruition and that fruition until it can be seen by others here that that is what they truly are (even if they are very real for you). Especially because you have just begun your thread.

I know I did that in my notes when I started and if I could do it over I'd just explain it as it is experienced without putting a specific name on anything. This way you cut out any possible speculation and your practice notes and attainments gain more credibility and add to this site in many postive ways. It's will be difficult to not use specific terms but give it a go. Describe to us what you term a "fruition" feels like for you in your own words without calling it a fruition. As well as any other experience associated with awakening. The nitty gritty details are what will help Kenneth and others give you guidance and support. As well as offer inspiration to others. Looking forward to reading more of the phenomenology of your experience.

Nick

Ah! I see! Kenneth seems to be full of great analogies!
I feel like most of the time, analogies are the only way to try to convey some of these experiences and they are so unconventional!

Nik, feel free to add your 2 cents on my question above, I know you have a lot of experience on these things. As always, ALL the comments, inputs, ideas, and thoughts from fellow yogis are GREATLY appreciated!
JF

Hey Jorge,

Concerning your question about postponing the next cycle. If this is 2nd path, I really don't think you will have much control over it. It takes on a life of itself soon enough if it is 2nd path. No avoiding it. and really, if it truly is 2nd path, I know it may feel awesome at the moment, that will change but know that it get's better at each path. Although there is still stuff to deal with at each path. I know I got happier at each one. And as Kenneth once said, each path is but a rest point on the road into town. Town being 4th path. You want to get there as soon as possible, trust me! I don't think you are gonna be able to hold it off if you are still practicing even samatha, resolution or not. Remember, dark nights are there to teach us to be happy in hell as well as heaven. Having a preference depends on conditions. I would keep going regardless in the direction of a happiness that does not depend on conditions. Why wait? These days, it seems like it is happening faster for many people here. Go for it!


Nick

Nick,

Thank you so much for your posting back!!
Yeah, I feel like the post-path honeymoon has mostly worn out, and what I'm seeing is the actual effect of attaining to the path (and that's why I'm trying to write it this time, as I didn't during stream entry). I have no doubts I will continue on the ride (one of the things I have been experiencing is that sense that I have crossed an "event-horizon-like" zone, and there is a pull towards continuing the whole awakening process that realistically I don't think I may be able to fight against. I was readying "The Progess of Insight" and "practical Vipassana Meditation" by Mahasi Sayadah and he mentions that one may be able to "resolve" to not continue aiming to attain higher paths for a while, so I was hoping that I could do so now after attaining to 2nd path (I try my best to focus on the illusion of stability and smoothness of the samatha Jhanas, but as soon as I start (instinctively) noticing the three characteristics of the Jhanic state, I quickly try to shift my attention to a higher one until I hit the 8th Jhana and then snap myself out of it. Maybe I wont be able to re-visit fruition during this review state?
I know this is borderline masoquist, but I really want to re-visit the dhukka Ñanas simply because in my experience they were the stages in which I felt the most being "stripped" away from me. However, from what everyone says, once the insight practice continues after achieving "suckerdagami!" LOL (as you put like to call it) all the way up the cycles speed up and come over and over, so I'm certain I will have plenty of chances to experience dark nite. Fruition however, is only supposed to be experienced during path entry and during "review"? so I'm hoping to review it at least once before the roller coaster ride takes me for the fast drops that are coming right around the corner!!

"Maybe I wont be able to re-visit fruition during this review state?
Fruition however, is only supposed to be experienced during path entry and during "review"? "

Hi Jorge,

The awakening process is very much physio-energetic. That energy is gonna flow regardless. It may slow down when you stop practicing insight. But in my experience, it was not in my control. Hehe!

Is your aim to review fruitions? Frutions can be experienced anytime you want. Have you just tried making a resolution to call one up in a set time frame while you sit? I got very good at this by practicing resolving for it to happen with just will of mind. Now I can call one up in 5 seconds. You don't have to wait for a fruition if you are 1st or 2nd path. You can call one up via resolving for one to happen. For example. You can resolve to enter a specific nana all the way up to equanimity of formations too if you want. Same with a fruition. Try it. Resolve to experience it and let go of the intention and keep meditating. You are training your mind to do what you want. Practice makes perfect.

You can also do Kenneth's eye flick method. Roll back your eyes and watch the eye lids flicker. Watch the last flickering sensation and watch as it ends. What happens to you when you do this?

There is a good thread somewhere here on making resolutions. I'll try and link it later.

Welcome. We appreciate you going back and describing your practice for us. If we are to avoid the issues that plauge the dharma overground its better not to allow anyone to walk in and claim anything. That having been said you have done really well at describing your practice. I know I was in what seemed like a long review for path 1 I accomplished this via resolutions I guess. Also if you are 2nd path I see no real reason to wallow in that review phase. I know it seems pleasant, but trust me as you continue to tread the path you will see much greater things lie ahead. Having said that, there are times when it is best to cool the jets for a while. I was able to experience fruitions via the eye flick method after 2nd but not before... again welcome...

"Also, to give people a better idea of where you are, Jorge, and in line with how Kenneth wishes to keep the site aimed at (for credibility reasons), from now on it might be a good idea to drop all the naming of things like this jhana and that jhana, this fruition and that fruition until it can be seen by others here that that is what they truly are (even if they are very real for you). Especially because you have just begun your thread. "

Absolutely!! I can definitely see how it has a lot more pedagogical value to describe the experiences rather than simply labeling them. One of the things I should have done since the beginning (and I had people telling me to ) was to write practice notes since the beginning of my practice. So far I have relied on pure memory. I have decided to do so after my second "popping" experience so it should be a lot easier for me to describe my practice experience!

" If we are to avoid the issues that plauge the dharma overground its better not to allow anyone to walk in and claim anything. "

Mr. Clayton,
Thank you so much for you input. I have read many of your posting in the past and it is a pleasure to receive your feedback. I'm far from being an expert on ANY of these "Dhamma" things, but I certainly have noticed some unfortunately issues on over great Dharma forums out there, specially when it comes to claims. I mentioned in my original posting certain degrees of "experiences" simply because I wanted to "get to the point" so to speak, and get other member's opinions and ideas (which I certainly have ) and honestly did not see at the time how much more beneficial for everyone is if we all describe our practice rather than simply "label" them.I will continue to describe my experiences and in that way continue to add value to our wonderful community.

Thank you Nick and Clayton for your thoughts on review and the nature of the cycles! certainly I'm feeling a pull towards the ride speeding up back again! What Nick mentioned about being able to review particular experiences throughout the cycles by making a resolution prior to the practice sound like a very good way to do some further study of such experiences, in particular the "popping" experience. Now, both Clayton and Nick, you guys mention experiencing "popping" via eye flickering method, is that technique done during a sitting? without meditating? after "cycling" during a sitting? Sorry for being so clueless! (I'm going to see if I find another threads talking about it)
JF

"If this is 2nd path, I really don't think you will have much control over it. It takes on a life of itself soon enough if it is 2nd path. No avoiding it."-Nikolai

I agree with Nick about this, Jorge. For all of us, the sooner we can give up the illusion that we are in control of this process, the better. From time to time, I have heard a yogi say that he or she would like to postpone the next phase of development until a more convenient time, but I am skeptical that it can be done and I suspect that such manipulation can actually cause harm to the psyche. So... let 'er rip! Surrender to the process and let it take you where it will. (And if you can help me with some translation as you are going through the next phase, whatever it is, so be it. If not, I'll see you on the other side!)

Kenneth

"What Nick mentioned about being able to review particular experiences throughout the cycles by making a resolution prior to the practice sound like a very good way to do some further study of such experiences, in particular the "popping" experience. Now, both Clayton and Nick, you guys mention experiencing "popping" via eye flickering method, is that technique done during a sitting? without meditating? after "cycling" during a sitting?"-foolbutnotforlong

If you like, Jorge, we can schedule a Skype session and I will teach you the technique. Send me a PM (private message).

"There is a good thread somewhere here on making resolutions. I'll try and link it later. "- Nick

I think the link you are looking for is one of my last thread where I had the same question and here is Nicks answer/method:

"You should now try making resolutions for a fruition to occur. It sounds like the fruitions you experience may be through the anatta door. These at times are hard to spot as they happen so subtly. The anicca door fruitions are much obvious "blip outs". As are the fruitions through the dukkha door. When you next sit, make the resolution to experience entry into a cessation moment through one of the doors. Will the mind up to equanimity of formations. When there, observe the impermanent nature of phenomena, say the vibrations or mental images etc. You will go through the anicca door. Do that for each of the characteristics. This is what I did and found each entry and exit experience is slightly different.

So make a firm resolution to experience fruition in your sit. Then kind of let go of that intention. The mind should carry you there. If you are "looking for" fruition it generally doesnt happen. You resolve for it to happen, sit and meditate as you usually do, and let go of the intent, note anticipation etc and it should happen in time.

Then you can make resolutions for it to happen in shorter periods, or maybe to dwell in it for long periods as opposed to a fraction of a second. This skill varies from yogi to yogi. I am only able to call up a fruition within 5 seconds anytime for a brief fraction of a second. I think Kenneth mastered staying in the cessation for minutes. Dont worry if you cant do that. Your skills may be different."- Nick

Sugato

WOW!! I just noticed that I forgot to copy and past the part about the begining of my practice. Sorry everyone! maybe now some things would make more sense?
Let's talk a bit about my practice. I started practicing meditation about 20 years ago with my parents (doing a lot of visualization, white light, chakra cleansing, etc) but my practice had been very scattered and rare, despite a very strong natural concentration ability. About 6 years ago I experienced a typical A&P phenomenon during a sitting. Of course without having a single clue as to this representing a stage of insight (probably because I was totally unaware of such practice at that time) after feeling my body vibrate strongly, getting crazy rapture, feeling overjoyed, etc., I thought I had touched God and that I had reached the highest spiritual point, and that blah blah blah....basically felt into the 10 corruptions and thought "this is it". After that, I did not feel the need to meditate anymore. Interestingly enough, I started to enter in depressive stages a few weeks after this experience. School, family, friends, girlfriends, etc., did not seem to give me any sense of fulfillment. the situation worsened year after year, to the point of actually becoming suicidal around 2 years ago. All I could think of was how unfair and miserable life and the world are, and how worthless I had become (at least I felt that way). Somehow I gathered up some strength and decided to stick around until "life" or "God" or whatever it was that created me decided to "uncreate" me. My depression continued however, until one day when I said to myself "enough! this is it! I'm done living this life!

(THIS IS THE CONTINUATION OF THE FIRST PART)

in this world of human rules and laws, of suffering and impermanent happiness. I became fascinated with a book by Chopra called "How to know God" and his definition of the perfect God (unmanifest, unchanging, etc) resonated with me, so I went ahead and decided to follow Buddhist insight practices head on. First I started doing Samatha because that's what I understood (within my ignorance at that time) to be the way to reach enlightenment (by reaching Nirodha). I was able to access the first 4 Samatha Jhanas with incredible ease (perhaps a couple of weeks after starting to practice them) and then started to be able to enter into the formless Jhanas (I would enter them quite softy but it was certain of their manifestation.

"
If you like, Jorge, we can schedule a Skype session and I will teach you the technique. Send me a PM (private message).
"

Kenneth, that would be fantastic! I'll look at my schedule and send you a PM to see if you have a chance to schedule me for a session!

"
So make a firm resolution to experience fruition in your sit. Then kind of let go of that intention. The mind should carry you there. If you are "looking for" fruition it generally doesnt happen. You resolve for it to happen, sit and meditate as you usually do, and let go of the intent, note anticipation etc and it should happen in time."

Sugato, Thanks so much for your input and providing the information regarding resolutions to review stages, specially fruition. I have been running around all weekend and had not chance to practice but certainly will give these resolutions a try and will report back on my experiences!

Thank you again!
Jorge F