You perceive what you expect to perceive

AugustusLeo wrote,

I understand the euphoria.

It seems as if many are achieving 1st or 2nd of 3rd or 4th path (Awakening) or beyond.

I hope so, but I doubt it. It will take years for most.

I agree that Kenneth is a great teacher; he is my recommended teacher of choice. If anyone can guide you to Awakening, Kenneth can.

But.

Take a deep breath and go back and practice. Let go of expectations. You perceive what you expect to perceive, and by reading this forum many of you have had your expectations pre-loaded with respect to achieving your goal. If you have a goal, you're not there yet ... not even close.

There is no one who can confer enlightenment on anyone, and no one who can take it away from you. Make your claims to attainment, if that makes you feel good about yourself ... no one really cares. There is no one who *can* care. Practice and let go of all the baggage.

What's happening here - in my perspective? Some are learning to let go enough to Awaken - a very few. Most are fooling themselves - '"Am I there yet?" - give it another thousand hours of practice or better yet another 10 years of practice.

For the first time in a long time, many are getting unambiguous training to achieve Enlightenment, and have started on the Path to Enlightenment. That's a good thing. Be advised that there's a long row to hoe.

Awakening is just the beginning.

I would like to hear a brief comment from those who are achieving 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th path. Is it smarter practice or just expectations as AugustusLeo suggests.

Okay, I liked that comment by AugustLeo a lot:

"If you have a goal, you're not there yet ... not even close". That's powerful. That's practice instructions, a map, and, well a *goal* all in one short sentence. Incidentally, the chapter "A clear Goal" in Dan's book is one of my favorites. Skillful use of goals and all that. The stick that stirs the fire and is being consumed by it. That kind of practice. Really powerful.

Another way to say this, I understand, is Kenneth's great one-liner how "there may be no conclusions to draw". Held in an appropriate way, that statement is just so empowering, so conducive to the "letting go" AugustLeo mentions.

Personally, I find it fundamentally important to constantly keep myself from jumping to premature conclusions, from settling into the familiar routine of "having it figured out", from the ossification of creeping dogma, from all the ways the kilesas or the sankharas or the small self of however you like to call this conservationist tendency will co-opt the language and concepts and practice of the dharma. Clever bastards, the kilesas. They learn incredibly fast. Better to stay ahead of them.

So is it my expectations which shape my experience? Am I fooling myself, after all? Aha! What would happen if I knew for sure? Could I then relax? Into what? And who wants to do that, anyway? Who wants me to do that, and why? (Nota bene: I'm not advocating any indulgence in *content* here, but a routine of questioning assumptions about the maps, the practice, the expectations etc - i.e. a kind of vigilance against the Dharma becoming just that much more *content* - "baggage" as I understand AugustLeo).

And, as assumptions go, I find it useful to assume that there is always more to do, "a long row to hoe" in A.L.s words, as I understand them.

Cheers,
Florian

I am very anti-telling people it will take a longtime to get to stream entry from my years in the Goenka tradition. Very disempowering. If you are working in the correct way, noting everything including all the thoughts of , will i get there soon?, all the expectations being noted as "grist for the mill", then it wont take 10 years at all. In the mahasi tradition they talk of 3 months to get it done if you are working correctly non-stop.

Three things I believe are needed to get stream entry quickly:

1/ Believe you can do it and walk or run in the direction of nibbana. If you don't believe you can do it , you wont. Lot's of yogis for example in the Goenka tradition have accepted the idea that it will take lifetimes as Goenka has put it. So they don't put in the effort needed. Lot's of people here are believing it can be done, so thus all the enthusiasm we see.

2/ Note EVERYTHING!. All mind states, thoughts, sensations, images etc which take centre stage. Look AT not look FOR. if you find you are doubting, searching for, wondering was that it etc, then you have just more "grist for the mill" right there to note. Edited to include get as concentrated as you can. The more concentrated the yogi the faster the progress. KASINA!!!!!!!

3/ MOMENTUM! MOMENTUM! MOMENTUM!!!!! Nuff said

It took August Leo a longtime. It doesn't have to take a longtime. Work in the right way and you will get it done quickly. The old folks are just jealous it didn't take some of us youngens very long at all. Just good karma perhaps hehe


my 2 cents

Edited to include: After 4th path, yes then it's a lifetime job. I'm just talking 1st path here.

As usual, I'm on the fence with regard to this issue.

On the one hand, yes - expectation and intention are two such forces which shape one's perception of reality. I do NOT think, however, that people simply see what they want to see, or experience what they expect to experience. This is too simplistic. There are myriad factors involved, in which intention and expectation are but two. The idea that the individual is solely responsible for their experienced reality is the scary result of magical thinking. The individual does not have absolute control. They play a role, but it isn't a definitive one. In short, I've never seen the faith of a mustard seed move a mountain.

It's true that there are people in this forum who may be jumping the gun in claiming any level of attainment, let alone 4th path. That's to be expected. We'd all like to think that the criteria for 4th path is cut-and-dry, but it isn't. I know of a handful of teachers who see it the way Kenneth does, but a great deal do not. And therefore, sticking to any model too closely may result in the slowing or stagnation of further progress for the individual who for whatever reason decides they are done. In most cases, it's probably better to assume you're not done and keep practicing with fresh, unclouded eyes.

(continued below)

(continued from above)

I disagree that the process should take a great number of years for everyone. This is yet another way in which expectation works against us in practice. If my teacher tells me that I won't get enlightened in this life - not even stream entry - what is the likelihood that I will practice in such a way as to attain it? Expectation is a double-edged sword in this way. On the one hand, it can shape reality in such a way as to distort the truth (much like the way people seem to think they've attained pureland jhana when they're really just shaping their experience, intentionally or unintentionally). On the other, it can cause one to doubt real progress as if it were insignificant and worth ignoring.

We should remain skeptical, but know how to call a spade a spade. We should check our knowledge against our teachers' experience, but also our own experience. We should know that progress on the developmental path of awakening is necessarily gradual, but that doesn't mean it will take a "long" or "short" time. We just don't know.

No matter what our practice is, and no matter what "stage" of awakening we have reached, there's something important to remember'¦

"We need to remember that where we are going is here - that any practice is simply a means to open our hearts to what is in front of us. Where we already are is the path and the goal." ~Jack Kornfield

~Jackson

Are we fooling ourselves? If so then this is the most convincing prank I've ever played on myself. My guess is that, like Nik's post, people here are starting to believe in themselves and that is making a tremendous difference.

It goes back to the first two steps of the eight fold path. Here's a KFd version:
Right View - This can actually be done!
Right Intention - I'm going to do it!

Ron wrote:

Right View - This can actually be done!
Right Intention - I'm going to do it!

Yeah! More power to that! In my post, I was going on about:

Right Effort - I'll do what needs to be done, and stop doing what hindering progress.

I.e. if I catch myself resting on my laurels, I'll give myself a good scolding and get myself going again.

Cheers,
Florian

I do love this line.

"If you have a goal, you're not there yet ... not even close."

If we are seeking something then we are still on the ride.

I think to believe this process is any different than any other human process in terms of the required attitude and aptitude necessary to succeed is simply preposterous. Based on my experiences, and those of most of my fellow yogis both the attitude taken towards practice (how much time and effort we are willing to invest, how accepting and open we are of different techniques, etc) and the natural aptitude (the natural 'life-giving' abilities for concentration and observation of the phenomena) of the practitioner play the same roles as those two elements play in the development of a professional athlete, or an accomplished surgeon, or a successful painter. If my attitude is that it will take my whole life to reach enlightenment, chances are that I will be right about that and it will take me that long (or a bit longer), regardless of how great my natural aptitude is. Equally I may have the best attitude towards achieving enlightenment, but I'm having a hard time with concentration it will probably take me longer than my fellow yogi that is as driven as me and that it has the same attitude towards it. I have found that that great teachers like Kenneth can do a great job 'coaching' us into focusing on the right attitude, and providing the guidance that will allow our natural 'life-giving' abilities to develop to their full potential, and thus making us yogis a lot more 'productive' and getting through this whole enlightenment business a lot quicker.

I often feel a sense of reservation describing how quickly I have been moving through this process, specially when I read or hear about those that have invested most of their lives to this practice. Not only do I join the Kenneths and the Ingrams, and the Nikolais (to name a few) in telling people that this CAN BE DONE in this lifetime and a lot sooner if the right attitude and our natural aptitude properly harnessed are working together in balance.

What motivated Buddha to live his home and pursue enlightenment? It looks to me like it was his Goal to end and overcome suffering what drove him. This whole 'if you have a goal you are not even close' attitude simply sounds condescending and lacking substance. There must be 'something' that drive us all the way to the very last moment of awakening, my goal is to understand my true nature, to come home, to the place I've always been but forgot so, and within my ignorance I do not see that goal disappearing until the very moment of my final surrender.
wonder why the Buddha talked about attainments and paths if we are not to talk about them? How do we know progress from non-progress? If people wish to be extremely strict and not allow themselves to accept to any attainments of path or any other type until they have looked at all the facts (I, for better of worse fall into that category) so be it. If some want to take a more cavalier or 'southern Californian' style (I, for better or worse wish I'd fall into that category) into their acknowledging to attainments go for it (unless they decide to teach, in which case I would strongly advice against so). As long as they have the right attitude and harness their natural aptitude I see quick progress developing for them.

and I second what was said about the older folks being jealous about our speedy progress! Apparently they "expected" their journey to take all their lives, and it did!
oh well, maybe in the next life? LOL

"awakening is just the beginning"

I think August Leo is hinting at the fact that although Kenneth can lead you to awakening (arhatship) enlightenment is a different bag altogether.

""awakening is just the beginning"

I think August Leo is hinting at the fact that although Kenneth can lead you to awakening (arhatship) enlightenment is a different bag altogether."

Mumuwu:
I think it would be a good idea to start a new thread: Awakening Vs. Enlightenment. It would be interesting to see what are people's views on them. Personally I see them as the very same.

"The Mahayana scriptures speak of those who are completely ready to open, those who are just about ready to open and those who have the potential to open. Those who have the potential are intellectual people who are interested in the subject but who do not allow enough room for this instict to spring out. Those who are almost ready are quite openminded, but they are watching themselves more than necessary. Those who are completely ready to open have heard the secret password of tathagata: someone has already done it, somebody has already crossed over, it is the open path, it is possible, it is the tathagata path. Therefore, disregarding how or when or why, simply open. It is a beautiful thing, it has already happened to someone else, why not to you? Why do you discriminate between "me" and the rest of the tathagatas?"
- Chögyam Trungpa

Where do you see yourself?

Does anyone else take issue with this idea that there are three distinct realizations called (1) awakening, (2) Self-realization, and (3) enlightenment?

With all due respect, I do not see how these additional classifications are useful.

EDIT: I see that I posted this after some of you commented with similar points. Thank you.

I may have first path. I get more sure all the time, but if I dont I'm still having a great time with all this.

I'm one of the lucky ones who (so far at least) has become way way more joyous and peaceful and happy since the supposed event. However, I do suspect that some of that for me is a 'placebo' effect, you know? But, that's fine, I'll take it!

And I do think I have just scratched the surface of all this and have just barely started --- and I love that. More and more and more is going to be revealed. when and how much and what? - how the F do I know?

foolbutnotforlong/Jackson,

I would definitely be interested in a deeper discussion of this.

I know Kenneth has talked about awakening being a developmental process which happens to somebody, and realization being a process that requires no development and happens to no one.

"Whereas the Theravadans would say that the important thing is development, and the advaitists and zen people would say that the important thing is Realization, I agree with the Tibetans that the ideal is both development and realization."

"I may have first path. I get more sure all the time, but if I dont I'm still having a great time with all this.

I'm one of the lucky ones who (so far at least) has become way way more joyous and peaceful and happy since the supposed event. However, I do suspect that some of that for me is a 'placebo' effect, you know? But, that's fine, I'll take it!"

Exactly.

1stpath/path of seeing/stream entry/1st bhumi, etc. Its all worth it. I think the message here is that it is possible and that it is far better than what we had before.

4th path/full enlightenment? Well, if someone else has done it, and if you still have time and energy. Definitely go for it. Will you reach it? This will be very different for each person.

Hi mumuwu,

I don't disagree with the quoted statement from Kenneth. I do not see realization and development as divergent or separate paths. I think they are mutually arising for the most part.

I think that the reason that some conservative Theravadins do not wake-up to the always-already is because they block themselves off from it. They have a specific agenda, and they work toward that aim. But awakening is multi-faceted. There's more to awakening than developmental progress. Realization is included, as is made evident when one looks into the paths of Zen and Vajrayana, and even the Thai Forest tradition (not to mention seemingly hardcore Theravadin teachers like Bhante Gunaratana). Realization is a key component to development, and vice versa. The modernist, rational, urban, uber-conservative manifestation of Theravada Buddhism that denies the more universal realization is, in my view, way off track. It's a wonderful example of how distorted views can prevent realization.

Just my opinion.

At this point, I stand by the fact that I don't think the classification I noted above (three types of awakening/enlightenment) is in any way helpful. It just adds to the confusion.

~Jackson

I think that's the idea of the 3 gears practice then isn't it?

"In pedagogy (the science of teaching and learning) there is a concept called "scaffolding." It means offering students a way to build their understanding step by step, so that each new understanding fits into what they've already learned. It's like building a scaffold around a house; you can climb up the scaffold to reach the high places you haven't finished building yet. If learning is carefully scaffolded, there will always be something to hang each new bit of learning on as it comes in. This association of each new bit of understanding with what has gone before helps you to retain knowledge better because anything you learn within a larger context is hard to forget or confuse. Later, as we shall see, the understanding we are most interested in is not related to knowledge in the usual sense. And it doesn't need anywhere to hang. All of the scaffolding is only a temporary device to help you find the confidence to abandon the building project entirely and find that you already are the happiness you seek."

I see no problem with scaffolding. The problem arises, in this case at least, when terms like Self-realization and Enlightenment and Awakening, which are almost always used interchangeably, are now being used to describe processes and/or stages which they do not traditionally - or perhaps even experientially -- line up with.

I've read a fair deal of Ramana and Nisargadatta, and I've not correlated the no-dog (Witness) to Self-realization. And that's what 2nd Gear practice is. Self-realization comes via the Witness/no-dog. It is the fruition/result that comes after the path/practice. To simply label the 2nd Gear as Self-realization is not a good use of scaffolding. Even stabilized Witnessing isn't "Self-realization," as Self-realization is beyond the "4th state." The 4th state is... you guessed it... Witnessing. Comparatively, Self-realization is tantamount to what is being called "Enlightenment." See what I mean? Confusing and unhelpful.

I hate being argumentative on the forum. I'm generally the kind of person that wants everyone to be happy and comfortable. But I genuinely don't understand how this scaffolding/classification of three types of enlightenment does anything but confuse the actual process.

As always, I could be way, way off base in my opinions. Or maybe I'm just feeling grumpy today. This is just a comment within the context of a larger dialogue, which could lead to my relenting of this position.

Jackson, I don't think you are being argumentative. I think you are bringing a clarity to this that was not there before.

Yes, there definitely seems to be an ambiguity about the terminology that is confusing.

Also I agree on what you are saying about ramana / nisargadatta in that the witness is what you hold onto until it opens into 3rd gear.

"The Three Speed Transmission" says everything:
This is how I see it:

There is a straight road and a destination. There is a teacher who has already reached it and want to show others. He says "look, I have a map to the destinationn which has not only been reached by me but by many others and these are signs on the way which will show you that you are on the right road". Once they start their journey they are on a car which has three gears. All they have to do is to follow the instructions on how to drive starting with first gear. Once they learn and seeing positive results they are on the ride. However there are some hills on the way. Some continue with first gear and some gear up to second or even third. The signs on the way are indeed very natural. There are some who once see the signs get so excited that they stop the car and starting to tell others about how far they have come. That is just waste of time and might even make the journey take longer time. Others try to find short cuts which ends up gettinng longer. When people follow properly follow the instructions and drive with constant speed they simply reach the destination. Once there, they know this is it. They simply get off the ride. However, this is not the end. The searching has ended but the exploration of the destination is vast and magnificant.

But there are other roads and teachers too. The roads might be longer, shorter or even leading to wrong places. The teachers might be saints or psychopaths.

But the end of journey and searching is same for every one. No matter what it is called, that is the universal destination among human beings. It has always been and it will always bee.


Edit: spelling

"
On the one hand, yes - expectation and intention are two such forces which shape one's perception of reality. I do NOT think, however, that people simply see what they want to see, or experience what they expect to experience. This is too simplistic. There are myriad factors involved, in which intention and expectation are but two. The idea that the individual is solely responsible for their experienced reality is the scary result of magical thinking. The individual does not have absolute control. They play a role, but it isn't a definitive one.

"

It is always a delight to read a thoughtfully considered, well-informed, and cogently expressed argument. [Even better when I agree!] If I were granted only one wish on behalf of spiritual aspirants of this time and place-- it would be collective amnesia of all the 'positive thinking' [and its vast family, and the horse it rode in on] corruptions that have infected our thinking / understanding for the last century and more.

Being positively predisposed to explanations and instructions designed 'for dummies' [ or idiots seeking guidance ] seems like a really sad commentary on how little respect a person can have for self or others. Let's lose oversimplifications of every sort! Reality is so much wilder and more wonderful than oversimplifications of either the ignorantly hopeful or cynically dismissive sorts.

Maybe the heart of the problem of 'overestimating' one's progress is the expectation that 'attainment' means being 'done with practice.' If we understand 'attainment' to mean clarity / wisdom, then we will simply be practicing being wise, compassionate human beings until we die. We won't become some sort of automaton-Buddha with no decisions to make and no life to lead.

"Maybe the heart of the problem of 'overestimating' one's progress is the expectation that 'attainment' means being 'done with practice.' If we understand 'attainment' to mean clarity / wisdom, then we will simply be practicing being wise, compassionate human beings until we die. We won't become some sort of automaton-Buddha with no decisions to make and no life to lead." ~roomy

Thank you. This is truly inspiring.