Hard Times and Liberation

I've posted quotations from this interview before, but the following has really been helpful to me today.

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Tami Simon: "What, prey tell, are the Buddha's instructions for hard times?"

Jack Kornfield: "Well, the first instruction from the Buddha is to say that hard times are not a mistake. You haven't done something wrong to have hard times. The First Noble Truth of the Buddha - the truth of dukkha - says that life is woven with praise and blame, and gain and loss, and pleasure and pain, and fame and disrepute, for all of us. And those constantly change so that the spiritual life is not about avoiding loss and blame and difficulty. But taking those difficulties that come to us and using them to awaken the wise and free and compassionate heart, no matter what. And often it's in the very difficulties that the greatest freedom comes to us. So, the Buddha's instruction in another way is to center yourself, to ground yourself, take a breath. And when you feel steady, to turn toward your difficulties rather than away from them. And to bow to them and say, 'Alright, this is the measure of difficulties I've been granted, or given at this point, as many other people have in this world. What in my own Buddha Nature - in the great heart of wisdom and compassion that can see these difficulties - what is the way I should respond?' And so the difficulties really bring you back to your spiritual center."

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(From the 'Sounds True: Insights at the Edge' episode titled 'Jack Kornfield: Hard Times and Liberation.' - bit.ly/9QUTVm [mp3])

i like 'to turn toward your difficulties rather than away from them. And to bow to them'
..to face it with utmost humility

The way I'm starting to approach a lot of this feels a little more reckless maybe than what Mr. Kornfield might do.
I mean, stuff is going to happen. All the time. Whether or not that stuff could be called "hard times" or not is pretty relative based upon one's current agenda, point of view, etc.
Based upon that, why not just always be just surrendering not only to what is happening but also to what one is doing about it, or feeling about it? Don't decide anything, don't have a point of view, don't judge yourself, don't try to be good, definitely don't look into your "buddha nature" and your "great heart of wisdom and compassion" (whatever that is) -- continuously empty yourself out -- see with your ears and hear with your eyes and be willing to fail horribly in every possible way.

Mike, I suppose that works, too.

Part of 'not having any views' is 'not having views against views.' I do think that this awakening thing is vast and multi-faceted. There's a place for the Zen-like or modern-Theravadin slicing and dicing of views (the Ginsu knife approach). But there are whole other dimensions to the thing that come into view as we continue to explore and remain open to the possibilities.

All fingers pointing to the moon, right? The Buddha Nature teachings are a way to point to the moon by describing its characteristics, rather than the characteristics of projected phenomena. It's not a bad way to point to awakening. I'm just saying...

I'm talking more about an activity than a "view."

"Don't decide anything, don't have a point of view, don't judge yourself, don't try to be good, definitely don't look into your "buddha nature" and your "great heart of wisdom and compassion" (whatever that is) -- continuously empty yourself out -- see with your ears and hear with your eyes and be willing to fail horribly in every possible way. "

Hey Mike,

I think the pointer here from Kornfield is really helpful. I remember listening to him say this to Tami, as I was helping record this particular episode (while I was still at Sounds True). I recall being deeply struck by the wisdom of what he was pointing to. As for what you're saying, it comes across to me as a tad bit arrogant. I'm not sure if that's a result of being puffed up from recent developments in your practice, but I suspect we're all subject to the "stink of enlightenment"... Perhaps a little more heart might be just what's needed.

Big Love & Respect,

-Vincent

"Hey Mike,

I think the pointer here from Kornfield is really helpful. I remember listening to him say this to Tami, as I was helping record this particular episode (while I was still at Sounds True). I recall being deeply struck by the wisdom of what he was pointing to. As for what you're saying, it comes across to me as a tad bit arrogant. I'm not sure if that's a result of being puffed up from recent developments in your practice, but I suspect we're all subject to the "stink of enlightenment"... Perhaps a little more heart might be just what's needed.

Big Love & Respect,

-Vincent"

I'm not quite sure where I became arrogant and stinky -- all I can think of right now is that it may have seemed like I was attacking Jackson somehow? If that is how it appears, I don't like that and hope I can learn from that and avoid it in the future.
Otherwise I don't think what I said is particulary original or outrageous -- just another legitimate (and perhaps provacative) take on how to practice and live.
Is it really arrogant to not believe in such things as a "compassionate heart of wisdom?" I'm open to there being such a thing but right now it doesn't seem real.

"Is it really arrogant to not believe in such things as a "compassionate heart of wisdom?" I'm open to there being such a thing but right now it doesn't seem real.-telecaster"

All right, I confess. I don't know what the compassionate heart of wisdom is either. ;-D

Maybe it's one of those things where you have to be in the right mood for it...

"All right, I confess. I don't know what the compassionate heart of wisdom is either. ;-D

Maybe it's one of those things where you have to be in the right mood for it...

"

I think it's akin to a literary metaphor and isn't supposed to be real? A "pointer?"

"All right, I confess. I don't know what the compassionate heart of wisdom is either."
I took it to be Buddha Nature, but looking at it now I might have been glossing over the detail.

"I'm not quite sure where I became arrogant and stinky -- all I can think of right now is that it may have seemed like I was attacking Jackson somehow? If that is how it appears, I don't like that and hope I can learn from that and avoid it in the future. "
Mike, in dealing with the arrogance do keep that confidence. ;-D

As a dharma minnow, phrases like "compassionate heart of wisdom" border on the disempowering: I don't know where to go with it and am not sure I would know how to tell if I've "got" it. Given Jack Kornfield's impeccable credentials, I have to assume that this is an example of the inherent limitations of language when applied to the dharma... but thanks to Mike for having the guts to call a spade a spade.

Perhaps mistakenly, I thought I understood both the original quote, and Vince's remark to Mike. Context is everything:
In the middle of experiencing hard times, Jackson posted the quote-- which was pointing out something he felt as an experience, and took comfort in; Mike responded with a kind of snarky dharma-critique out of HIS feeling about such language. And Vince replied out of his feeling for the emotions richocheting around the conversation.

Sometimes a spade is NOT 'just' a spade: sometimes it is all you have left from your beloved ancestor whom your heart cries out for everyday. And you don't give a damn whether what's down at the hardware store is newer, shinier, or in any other way 'better' in the eyes of a consumer.

And maybe Vince was implying that practice is always infinitely specific and of the conditions the moment presents: making invariable rules, relying on one response, claiming there is only one way... there are threads on this forum, as in life, that should show where that leads. [If I misread you, Vince, my apologies; it's just me, then, who thinks this should be said.]

re: the compassionate heart of wisdom

if not the compassionate heart of wisdom, at least the other 3 immeasurables: metta, mudita, upekkha? If not in the mood, then there's always upekkha.. Being in surrender is just like and the same as upekkha, right?

"Context is everything..."-Roomy

"And maybe Vince was implying that practice is always infinitely specific and of the conditions the moment presents..."-Roomy

Hmmm... then maybe there is more than one context? Hmmm...

Mike, I don't put you on a pedestal or take you as an authority (except maybe on what it took to get Mike to 1st Path), but you've offered a lot of zingers that have helped re-focus me on actual practice. You have a gift for the zingers (imho).

OK, my wife just took me to task for being cryptic and snarky on this thread, so I'd like to give a more thoughtful response now. Here are some reflections, beginning by mirroring Roomy's post:

Jackson is going through a difficult time in his life and created a thread to share a quote that is helpful to him. Mike responded to the tone and content of the quote, possibly without realizing that this is in the context of something very personal for Jackson. Vince jumped in to support Jackson (and Kornfield), but ended up seeming to attack Mike. Mike responded to apologize and clarify his original intention, but still missed the context of Jackson's personal situation. I jumped in to support Mike and to take a back-handed swipe at Kornfield (reacting negatively to what I saw as pop psychology in dharma clothing). Gary added clarification of the Kornfield quote along with support for Mike. Dave posted to support Mike and to express his own dissatisfaction with the language in the Kornfield quote. Roomy weighed in to recap, support Jackson and Vince and chastise Mike. Mindful jumped in seeking to tie in the Jack quote with another Buddhist teaching. I jumped in to counter Roomy, appearing snarky and cryptic in the process. Mark jumped in to encourage Mike.

Have I got it right so far? The elephant in the thread is Jackson's personal situation, which makes the rest of this discussion seem slightly out of touch, irrespective of the excellent points being made both pro and con about Jack's approach. This, I believe, is the point Roomy was making, and it's a good one. We may not know what exactly the compassionate heart of wisdom is, but we know what compassion is and that is good enough for me.

I would love to discuss the Jack quote in another thread if anyone else is game, letting this thread get back to Jackson's point, which is that difficult times are good times to open to your experience in this moment.

"Jackson is going through a difficult time in his life and created a thread to share a quote that is helpful to him. Mike responded to the tone and content of the quote, possibly without realizing that this is in the context of something very personal for Jackson. Vince jumped in to support Jackson (and Kornfield), but ended up seeming to attack Mike. Mike responded to apologize and clarify his original intention, but still missed the context of Jackson's personal situation. I jumped in to support Mike and to take a back-handed swipe at Kornfield (reacting negatively to what I saw as pop psychology in dharma clothing). Gary added clarification of the Kornfield quote along with support for Mike. Dave posted to support Mike and to express his own dissatisfaction with the language in the Kornfield quote. Roomy weighed in to recap, support Jackson and Vince and chastise Mike. Mindful jumped in seeking to tie in the Jack quote with another Buddhist teaching. I jumped in to counter Roomy, appearing snarky and cryptic in the process. Mark jumped in to encourage Mike.

Have I got it right so far? The elephant in the thread is Jackson's personal situation, which makes the rest of this discussion seem slightly out of touch, irrespective of the excellent points being made both pro and con about Jack's approach. This, I believe, is the point Roomy was making, and it's a good one. We may not know what exactly the compassionate heart of wisdom is, but we know what compassion is and that is good enough for me.

"

I SWEAR that in my innocence of yesterday I actually thought I was helping Jackson and that he'd read what I said and it would lessen his suffering. I'm serious.
How's that for arrogance and being puffed up and stinking of enlightenment and being the epitome of snarkyhood?
I do believe that I failed miserably at my intended task
But I'll keep at it.

"I would love to discuss the Jack quote in another thread if anyone else is game, letting this thread get back to Jackson's point, which is that difficult times are good times to open to your experience in this moment." ~Kenneth

Thanks, Kenneth.

Yes, I've been pretty open about the fact that I'm going through some unfortunate circumstances right now. I didn't think Kornfield's choice of words would cause drudge up another conversation about "The Controversy."

I don't think Kornfield's "compassionate heart of wisdom" is some kind of ontological reality, which we are obligated to affirm or negate based on reason. If practice has taught me anything in the last few months, it is this: when I turn toward my difficulties rather than away from them, and allow my self to experience them completely, a very basic openness of being is recognized, and it is more me than my problems are. This capacity for wisdom, compassion, and heart during difficulties is what Kornfield refers to as Buddha Nature. I believe we all have this capacity. It's not "out there" to be affirmed or negated. It's right here - right in here.

And knowing this -- rather, experiencing this -- has been more helpful than I could have imagined.

So yeah, this thread was posted within a very particular context. It's about hard times, not ultimate realities.

Thank you all for your feedback.

Jackson

"I SWEAR that in my innocence of yesterday I actually thought I was helping Jackson and that he'd read what I said and it would lessen his suffering. I'm serious.
How's that for arrogance and being puffed up and stinking of enlightenment and being the epitome of snarkyhood?
I do believe that I failed miserably at my intended task
But I'll keep at it."

The only little aside I have to add is that in my haste to support Jackson I was careless of seeming to attack YOU, Mike, as being generally cavalier -- I say 'seeming' because that wasn't what I meant in this instance, and it isn't what I think of you overall. I share Vince's 'affection and respect'. So I didn't express myself as I had intended to-- just as I was trying to say that MIKE hadn't expressed himself as he had intended to...

life-- always a work-in-progress; never the final Big Win! damn!

"If practice has taught me anything in the last few months, it is this: when I turn toward my difficulties rather than away from them, and allow my self to experience them completely, a very basic openness of being is recognized, and it is more me than my problems are. This capacity for wisdom, compassion, and heart during difficulties is what Kornfield refers to as Buddha Nature. I believe we all have this capacity. It's not "out there" to be affirmed or negated. It's right here - right in here.

And knowing this -- rather, experiencing this -- has been more helpful than I could have imagined."

Jackson, if its any conciliation, the words you are bringing out of your difficulties speaks to me deeply. "Compassionate Heart of Wisdom" or not, there is a lot of compassion, heart, and wisdom in what you're saying. Thank you for taking the time to put it up here. I need to do more of this myself.

Sometimes life hurts, but it's still just life. To paraphrase Leonard Cohen, sometimes things crack, but that's also where the light gets in.

Jackson, I didn't mean to diminish in any way what you are going through and am sorry that it might have come across that way... sigh. Your posts from the frontline continue to be really helpful to me and, obviously, many other practitioners. Please keep it up...

With gratitude,

D.

I just arrived at this thread and I'm gonna stay out of the interesting but tangential sociodynamic commentary!
As for me, I resonate deeply with the message of this quote. Finding and learning to rely on that facet of my being that is naturally warm and open, and that can recieve any thought, feeling, sensation, or external circumstance in this simple open intimacy, rather than constantly struggling to re-arrange said thoughts feelings etc, is the heart of what keeps me real, compassionate and wise, to whatever extent that is so in any moment.

So many periods of difficulty, pain, and outright tragedy in my life: but not for them, and learning to meet them in this simple intimate way, where would my "practice" be? This is the practice, as much as finding this non-reactive openess in beautiful and neutral situations- in whatever situation is the case, right now.
-Jake

I came across this talk recently on the same topic; maybe it will be helpful for you or other readers.

Chas Dicapua
Why Connect With What Is Difficult?
dharmaseed.org/teacher/43/talk/9004/

Hope you find peace soon, Jackson.

Thank you, Brian. Things are getting much better.