Noting, shooting and videogames... (or how do I note?)

So, I still can't get my monkey of a mind around this.
I usually divide my sittings in one part where I do what I for now will call KFD-style 4Fs and Mahasi-style noting.
Before I used to do the four foundations separately, but now for two days (!) I've been doing them mixed (as in "pressure, neutral, tension, unpleasant, planning thought, cold, neutral, calm'¦").
Followed by bystander.

There is still a fundamental difference for me'¦
KFD-style, I go out hunting for things to note.
Mahasi-style, I always return to "rising" "falling" and when something enters Zap! I note it.
I believe Mahasi S described it pretty well in his instructions. Therefore when I do M-S I do not say "planning thought", just "thinking", etc'¦
And to describe it with a little homage to Daniel's book, videogamewise KFD-4Fs I am playing a first-person-shooter looking for things to shoot, I mean note.
Whereas Mahasi-styli is like a sniper-arcade-game where I am lying still in one place looking at a building (that's rising and falling?), and when something appears (e.g. in one of the windows, I note it down.

I am in a perpetual state of wondering afterwards if I did the noting of the 4Fs in a constructive way?
Any thoughts??

Thanks a lot,
/M

I think this really covers it:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Basi...itation+Instructions

and it is when I started following these instructions exactly that I really began to make progress.

I suspect that what you are doing is over complicated.

Breath in -- note "rising" -- breath out -- note "falling" at the end of the out breath there may be a pause -- note "stopping." Just keep doing this. try not to miss a rise or a fall or a stop. then, within each phase, each rise, fall stop, notice (rather than note) what is going on as described in Kenneth's instructions I linked above. Really be aware of all the stuff going on in the breaths. If something really pulls your attention away from the breath -- note it and then go back to the breath.
that is all.

Meekan,

We don't want to be looking for things to shoot. If things are apparent we shoot them, but if we are looking for something we should be shooting at that looking. It's sort of the sniper game until things get more subtle and there's too much for one sniper to handle, although he can see a lot more than he's capable of shooting at. In that case you may want to drop noting and just take it in (or better yet, keep with the rising and falling as your note/anchor and notice everything you can). If you notice that you are getting embedded then return to noting whatever (again, rising and falling is a good place to turn). I am noting at a rate of say once a second or 2 (sometimes faster if I am trying to stay on top of something like a pain).

I think the rapid fire game has it's applications though (when trying to penetrate an object for example).

The key is that you are noticing what's happening now. Noting is just a tool to keep you on the right track.

In terms of the 4 foundations, whatever works best for you. I like to take each one separately at the beginning of a sit and then sort of keep attention on all of them noting whatever is present. I like to note the feeling tone along with the sensation and then I will note any emotions and thoughts as they come up. Itch - negative, pain - negative, coolness - pleasant, planning-thought, image-thought, frustration, etc.

I think you'll get it best if you just try some different things and see what works best for you. I also suggest you try what Mike suggests as I finding I am getting into that simpler style more and more.

"If something really pulls your attention away from the breath -- note it and then go back to the breath.
that is all."

This is a point of confusion for me, too.

Sayadaw U Pandita says: "During a sitting meditation, if another object impinges strongly on the awareness so as to draw it away from the rising and falling of the abdomen, this object must be clearly noted" (In This Very Life, Boston, Wisdom, 1992, p. 5).

The question is what is meant by "strongly."

I take it to mean that if you simply become peripherally aware of an itch in your arm, for example, then don't go chasing off to investigate and note the itch. Only do so if it's so strong as to pull your attention completely away from the abdomen.

What's not clear to me is how long you spend on the itch before returning to the abdomen. Do you return to the abdomen as soon as feasible, or do you let the itch run its course first -- which might be several minutes?

And what if yet another phenomenon, say, a sound, pulls you away from itch before you can get back to the abdomen? After noting "hearing," do you return to the itch or to the abdomen?

".

The question is what is meant by "strongly."

I take it to mean that if you simply become peripherally aware of an itch in your arm, for example, then don't go chasing off to investigate and note the itch. Only do so if it's so strong as to pull your attention completely away from the abdomen.

What's not clear to me is how long you spend on the itch before returning to the abdomen. Do you return to the abdomen as soon as feasible, or do you let the itch run its course first -- which might be several minutes?

And what if yet another phenomenon, say, a sound, pulls you away from itch before you can get back to the abdomen? After noting "hearing," do you return to the itch or to the abdomen?"

I'll refer to Kenneth for the definitive answer, but I think all this has to be done in a relaxed, experimental manner as you slowly find out what feels right and what seems to be working.
For me, I'd probably stay with the itch until it runs its course and not pull away to note the sound, but that is just me. But, if the sound really compels your attention, note it and go back to the itch until the itch runs its course.
I think I lot of times a vipassana sitting can be almost 90 percent on the abdomen and at other times only 10 percent on the abdomen as other objects strongly attract attention. And these other objects will come and go and change as your practice progresses.
Once I got to equanimity I really stayed with the sensations of the rise and fall of the abdomen for entire sits, unless vibrations got really strong and then I'd completely drop the rise and fall and note the vibrations. I'm not sure if this was the "right" way or not.

I'd say if you can continue to notice the itch alongside of the rising and falling, note rising and falling, if the itch is too much so you can't stay with the breathing - or more likely a thought draws you away note it instead. The itch will change or disappear eventually. It has too. If a sound is what is most prevalent, note the sound, try to return to the abdomen, note rising and falling a few times if you can and if not return to the itch. The breath is the anchor you return to by default unless something else is either distracting or interesting and you want to take it as an object instead (for example take an itch as an object until it changes into tingling, take tingling as an object until it changes into pulsing, take pulsing as an object until the pulse stops dead, then return to the breath as an object).

The idea is to notice whatever is presenting itself to consciousness be it an itch, a thought, or looking for something to note. The noting is secondary and is used as an aid to know that you are not embedded in phenomenon and are actually noticing what is going on in real time. The beauty of what Mike is suggesting is that you don't need to even concern yourself with this unless you are really off on a tangent. Noticing whatever is happening while staying with the abdomen as an anchor is a good way to not even have to deal with these issue of deciding what labels to use.

"I think this really covers it:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Basi...itation+Instructions

and it is when I started following these instructions exactly that I really began to make progress.

I suspect that what you are doing is over complicated.

Breath in -- note "rising" -- breath out -- note "falling" at the end of the out breath there may be a pause -- note "stopping." Just keep doing this. try not to miss a rise or a fall or a stop. then, within each phase, each rise, fall stop, notice (rather than note) what is going on as described in Kenneth's instructions I linked above. Really be aware of all the stuff going on in the breaths. If something really pulls your attention away from the breath -- note it and then go back to the breath.
that is all. "

Thanks Guys!
However... therein lies my conundrum.
Those instructions are pretty much EXACTLY what I call Mahasi-style noting, and beautifully described!

BUT, Kenneth also teaches the four foundations of mindfuness and the bystander perspective, and I am having a hard time understanding how to integrate it all into one fluid thing. Mahasi-style flows for me where the other do not, indicating I need to learn more about them I guess.

Nice questions, meekan, and well put too, I love the descriptions. I am right there with you on the confusion between the two styles, and the "hunting" versus "sniping".

The "sniping" seems to work best for getting me into a highly concentrated state, with investigation happening in the moment things arise. I feel very stable, as if I am taking slow and deliberate "steps" with each breath/note.

Whereas the "hunting" style gets me very much into investigation, with a lighter concentration underlying it. The "hunting" concentration seems to arise only when the noting is going smoothly, each notation being a moment in which concentration builds. It feels like I'm walking faster but am less stable, more likely to "misstep" in a moment where I get stuck with seemingly no "game" to "hunt".

Maybe it would be helpful if someone can clarify how a more "sniping" method of noting rising/falling/stopping could be incorporated with the 4 Foundations? Focusing mostly on rising/falling/stopping seems, to me, to limit my ability to accurately note each phenomenon that arises in the 4 Foundations modality.

That is, focusing primarily on the breath leaves at a loss for words when doing the 4 Foundations.

I'm in the same boat as you here, so I don't mean to offer this as any sort of answer. Maybe its just a questions of taste/what-works-for-you...

Concentration usually makes me dull or puts me to sleep. It also activates an aversive sense of opposition between the effort to concentrate and the object. Disturbing energy starts to build up. More choiceless or inclusive approaches get around this problem. That's why general noting turned out to be my favorite practice, much less problem with divisive energy problem and spacing out. Following the breath at the abdomen is supposed to be a vipassana not a concentration practice, but it gets me into the same dynamic as concentration does. Several friends over the years have said they had the same thing. A few months ago I tried taking this on again and stayed with the abdomen and associated difficulties long enough to feel like I was finding my way with it and beginning to enjoy the practice for the 1st time. But it felt like I was losing that sense of catching what's going on generally that can come with generalize noting. I'm supposed to have heriditary cognitive issues that might involve brain differences. I'll be very interested to see if someone believed to have an autism spectrum disorder, poor natural concentration ability, and practices mainly generalized noting can make paths. Anyone else have experience with this?

Below is what Kenneth just replied to another yogi. So, I think it is far to say that under his teaching how one notes will vary depending on the circumstances. Seek his direct guidance

"Lots of itching. I singled out specific itchy points throughout but I'm also continuing to stay with the rising and falling while being aware of body sensations."-Nadav

At this stage, you have to choose one object and stay with it. You can't average your attention out between the breath and the itching. If the itching arises, go to it, drop the breath ENTIRELY and become interested in the itch. Become the world's greatest authority on that itch. What does it do? Does it get stronger, clearer, brighter, does it fade, does it pulse or strobe? After it fades out, stay in that area of a few moments and see if it returns. Go back to random noting only after you are certain that you have wrung every bit of useful information out of the itch (or the pulse or the throb or pain or whatever is the predominant object). By the way, is there some reason you prefer to use the breath? You don't need to follow the breath at all. For you, at this point, I recommend pure noting practice, aloud. This is the practice that will help your practice unfold most efficiently.

"I think it is far to say that under his teaching how one notes will vary depending on the circumstances. Seek his direct guidance
"

An excellent point, thank you Mike,

Very interesting quote!, and, yes, a good point. Thanks. (Fortunately I've got a Skype appointment coming up shortly.)

"Below is what Kenneth just replied to another yogi. So, I think it is far to say that under his teaching how one notes will vary depending on the circumstances. Seek his direct guidance
"

So much for trying to follow advice given to others. I guess even though some of my experiences right now are very similar to that very yogi, I am still not him.

In my personal practice i reckon I'll just go on with my confusion practice till I get some more persomal comment

Thanks for offering to help, everyone!

meekan, if you are getting the itches, I think you'll want to penetrate them as an object which will take you into the A&P (if they are a symptom of the three characteristics stage - the itching being dukkha).

I suggest you watch one of those itches and becoming an expert on it. It worked for me at that stage as well. You want to see that the itch is not you (because you are objectifying it) and also that it changes/disappears eventually (is impermanent) the itch is dukkha.

Once you cross the A&P the focus becomes more on concentration because you have developed your ability to penetrate objects. Perhaps the breathing focus technique would work better after the A&P and at this point you should try doing what nadav is working on.

"There are two very different instructions, depending on whether a yogi is pre- or post- fourth ñana. A pre- fourth ñana yogi, i.e. one who has not attained to the level of the Arising and Passing Away of Phenomena, must put his focus on penetrating the object. A post- fourth ñana yogi must concentrate. It's that simple. And the reason, in my opinion, that the western dharma scene has been so spectacularly unsuccessful in producing high levels of attainment in its students is that western dharma teachers give beginning instruction to intermediate and advanced students; they tell post- fourth ñana students to ratchet up the intensity of their vipassana, when they should be telling them to concentrate their behinds off."
-http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Jhana+and+Ñana

Hi Meekan,

You are talking about the difference between noting with a primary object (the breath) and noting without a primary object. Both are excellent tools to have in your yogi toolbox. Noting with a primary object simultaneously develops pure concentration (samatha) and vipassana investigation. Pure noting develops vipassana and momentary concentration (khanika samadhi).

The main reason for using a primary object is that it gives you an anchor, something to return to when the mind is not actively engaged with some particular object. The disadvantage of using the breath object is that it takes years to master.

Noting aloud, which is my own adaptation of pure noting, uses the feedback loop of the spoken note itself to keep you on track, thereby eliminating the need for a primary object. It is much more accessible than using the breath and almost anyone can learn to do it well in one instruction session. That is why I recommend it for most people even above Mahasi's breath-as-primary object technique.

In neither case should you "go looking" for objects. There are always dozens of objects to choose from; you don't have to seek them out, you just have to stop ignoring them. Sensations of breathing are just as good as other objects, but the idea that they are better is just an idea.

When you notice an object, you don't have to "shoot it down." You only have to become interested in it and see what it does. You are more a birdwatcher than a fighter pilot. Birds are fascinating, so it is a labor of love to observe their behavior. The more you observe them, the more you see and the more passion you develop for bird watching.

"I suggest you watch one of those itches and becoming an expert on it. It worked for me at that stage as well. You want to see that the itch is not you (because you are objectifying it) and also that it changes/disappears eventually (is impermanent) the itch is dukkha. "

Thanks a lot, mumuwu!
I'll definitely try to see how I can work with this!

Hi, Kenneth!
I get saddened by the fact that I don't really get how I could apply this in my own practice.
The basic instructions are pretty unambiguous to me.
If I, for different reasons, can't note aloud, is the alternative then to stick to the breath?

"If I, for different reasons, can't note aloud, is the alternative then to stick to the breath?
"

I think you need to try. I am not sure what the reasons might be, but it seems unlikely to me that you would not have the opportunity to note aloud 5 or 10 minutes, even "sotto voce". The difference in the impact of noting is dramatic.

"If I, for different reasons, can't note aloud, is the alternative then to stick to the breath?"-Meekan

No, I don't think the breath is a good practice for you right now. It has become just another thing for you to get embedded in. You may be unconsciously using the breath to draw you into a pleasant, hypnogic state that allows you a few minutes of seeming relief from anxiety but does nothing to help you awaken.

Do not evaluate your practice by how pleasant it is. Evaluate you practice by how continuously and accurately you can note your changing experience. As tomotvos pointed out, most people can find some time each day to note aloud, or at least "sotto voce" (whispering to yourself). If for some reason this would be disturbing to others or embarrassing, you can note silently to yourself.

If certain unbearable sensations arise while noting, including anxiety and extreme aversion, this means you are getting close to waking up, not further away. Allow yourself to become interested in this phenomenon. Why should the simple noting of your experience bring up so much resistance? Notice that the resistance itself is a mind state, something to be noted. Note it. "Anxiety, aversion, dissatisfaction, doubt." If you run away from the resistance, you become its slave. If you turn toward it and investigate, it becomes powerless to cause you suffering. It's like the mythological stories about dragons; by naming the dragon, you take away its power.

@tomotvos and @kennethfolk, thanks a lot!
I was in a really foul mood after last meditation
I guess I didn't really get that the loud noting was the important part and that it can be done in a "sotto voce" way.
Thanks, will do it!

I still don't really get what to note though.
Mahasi-style - Note everything!
4F-style, unclear... Note what you like whenever you like. Either one F at a time (excluding all else), or as some do it, note whichever one pops up (as in "itching, pleasant, planning thought, pressure, calm"), here the difference being that I would exclude things like "intending", "moving" (e.g. arm), since they aren't any of the 4 Fs.
Or is it total free flow? "Stay with emotional tone for an hour if you like"

I think I get that it isn't about looking for pleasure, and I haven't been pursuing that, but maybe I've been fooling myself there.

Also, noting aloud, is mumuwu's tip about becoming an expert of a sensation, as in staying with one itch (even when other present themself) valid where I am now?

Thanks for bearing with me, and sorry if I ask very n00b questions, but I want to get into the nitty gritty of practice and not just some airy notion of "sit and do what you like, and all shall reveal itself".

Cheers!
-M

meekan,

you need to relax when you sit. Just chill out, take it easy, let the mind settle down, don't worry about what to note, there'll be things to note, it doesn't have to be a specific list of things, just real things that are happening to you. You want this to be kinda fun, so if there's sensations that are of interest to you note them. Become and expert in what they are doing, but don't cling to them. If they decide to leave, don't worry, just note they have left, note your longing for them to return, then return to something else, a breath or two maybe, maybe the feeling of your butt on the cushion, or your hands resting on your lap, whatever.

If you get something new that show up, that is bright, and persists (such as an itch) that's something good and interesting you can take an interest in for a time. Become familiar with it, let it change, grow, shrink, become more complex, whatever.

You need to adapt to what's going on.

Good thing to get these questions out in the open now. Key is to become an expert on what's happening now. At first it seems there's a lot to choose from in terms of noting, just pick what the most interesting thing is right now, it eventually will be replaced by something else. As concentration deepens it will naturally take in more and more of what's going on, so don't worry too much about capturing everything at this point. You just want to keep a sustained effort to remain present, more so than capturing all of the details at this point. That will come, right now your ability to note is the measure.

And in terms of the 4 fs, everything in your experience is one of those. The 4f's is useful in making sure you aren't embedded on a particular level and so I find it good to start out with some times, but don't get too hung up on it. I just note whatever, and use 4f's if I'm particularly embedded.

Ryguy has posted some very long transcripts of his outl oud noting. I don't know if that'd be helpful, perhaps it'd be worth a look.

Thanks for the immense support, mumuwu!
The reason for my confusion was that I was doing the (try to) "note everything that pops up"-thing. Something like Ingram describes in MCTB that a Singaporean (?) monk told him, "to note EVERYTHING".

Compartmentalization as I interpreted the 4 Fs stopped me from doing just that.
(As I repeatedly say, "my interpretation"...)

And yeah, after my last freakin' out in a bad mood I decided to let go more...

meekan,

No trouble. I really want to help you get the fire started, once it's going it'll be much easier to see this thing through to the end.

You won't be able to note everything unless you are deeply deeply concentrated, and even then I don't think you'd be able to actually verbalize everything.

See there is attention/awareness and then there is content (what you are noting). You are exercising and strengthening your attention by doing these exercises. By noting like this you will be engaging the attention for short periods over and over again during your sitting. Each time you notice something this creates momentary concentration, by continuing to note without a break you get more and more concentrated and more and more things will unfold for you.

Exercise that attention by noting (pressure - neutral, judging though, pressure - neutral, pain - negative, image thought, etc). So you are naming something concrete going on inside you at the moment you are noting.

doing my last sit I just realized even though "there is always things to note" that I actually told myself, "ok, physical, what's going on there?", and finding sensations, after that emotional tone , "ok, what is there? unpleasant, neutral, etc...". "mind states, what's on there?" and finally "thoughts, what's up there right now?"
Thus, I am still searching with my binoculars...
Not just waiting to see what happens right now, then I would just note regardless of it being one of the 4 fs or not.
Don't know how to do it in any other way..?