Interesting exchange between Charles Tart & Shinzen Young

"That's why I act like such a di_k sometimes. Or at least that's how I'm rationalizing it in this moment.

Kenneth

"

I don't know much about it, but I think there is scientific literature out there showing that certain people doing certain types of meditation or mindfulness activities can get a reduction in stress or relief from some mental illness symptoms. Right?

However, the context here and the context for people like Mr. Young and Mr. Tart and IMS and Spirit Rock and various zen centers, etc. is on Buddhist-oriented meditation leading towards freedom, enlightenment, awakening, intimacy, whatever you want to call it.
And, if that is what one is doing, then freaking do it. Do THAT. God I just love the way Kenneth approaches all this and the way he is stubborn about honesty and empowerment.
"Idiot compassion" that is SO perfect - I'd never heard that before. I'll never forget the time I was on here talking about noting and someone came on and flamed me, saying I was advocating "fast noting" and that that could cause mental illness or some kind of freak out in some people and I'd better watch what I say or something like that. I didn't get it or know what to do with that info and I still don't.

I'm still confused by 98 percent of the buddhist-oriented practice out there. I still haven't been able to get a good answer for why they don't just talk about the maps and the stages and what happens and why we are doing these things. What ARE they talking about?
We need more di_ks doing this work and right now Kenneth is the biggest one around

(again this rant is NOT aimed at any of my friends here just once again at the mushroom culture out there)

I think Kenneth is right it is likely that we are swinging a bit far in one direction... But it's needed I think, also I would like to ad that my history of anxiety, depression and crippling chemical dependency did not stop my progression... I dunno some times you just gotta stop whining and take the pain of insight practice if you wanna get benefit... Of course there is anyone and place for these things. I am glad I started to work on my other issues before I started serious insight practice

I've heard enough Mary Oliver poems. Kenneth--keep on truckin!

"I've heard enough Mary Oliver poems. Kenneth--keep on truckin!"

but i bet you'll never get enough Rumi

"I think Kenneth is right it is likely that we are swinging a bit far in one direction... But it's needed I think, also I would like to ad that my history of anxiety, depression and crippling chemical dependency did not stop my progression... I dunno some times you just gotta stop whining and take the pain of insight practice if you wanna get benefit... Of course there is anyone and place for these things. I am glad I started to work on my other issues before I started serious insight practice "

Stop whining and take the pain? Are you sure you never did a Rinzai retreat?

"I am glad I started to work on my other issues before I started serious insight practice."

Thank you, Clayton. We can't be so doctrinaire as to think the ONLY solution to all cases is our solution. To a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. That's not clear thinking and that's not compassion. It is ideology.

Just sayin'

Over and out.