Recorded Talk on Pragmatic Dharma

I started teaching (more formally) a couple months ago, and last night I spoke to our group about "pragmatic dharma." This was a really fun talk to give, 1) Because it's the approach I've resonated with the most over the years, 2) Because it was fun to explore how the Western philosophical movement of pragmatism is so intimately connected this approach, & 3) Because it was enjoyable to contextualize pragmatic dharma in a larger context, and to poke a little fun at its limitations.

Anyway, for those of you who are interested, it's around 15 minutes or so: bit.ly/ddTp4M

Also, I'd be happy to chat about any of the things that were brought up in the talk, here in this thread.

Great talk.
Thanks for not calling it "hardcore dharma."

Awesome overview Vince. If I hadn't been involved in this type of practice, this would be the sort of talk that would have really peaked my interest and got me looking into this stuff on a deeper level (so I'm quite glad you gave this talk). Well put and very entertaining/interesting/inspiring. I can really identify with your personal story as well (doing my own thing, getting some results, reading Daniel's book, going for it!). Thanks so much for all you do!

Hey Vince, first of all I can't express my gratitude for the work you have done with Buddhist Geeks, if it weren't for that podcast I likely wouldn't have been exposed to any of this stuff... I enjoyed the talk, it does seem most helpful to be aware of the maps but remember as Ken Wilber says, the map isn't the territory. I would love to listen to any more talks you would care to post.

Yeh, I would like to also jump in here and express my gratitude to you, Vince. I was lost for years then one day while living here so far away from any Dharma centres or groups in Chile, I typed in Buddhist podcast into google and up came Buddhist Geeks. From there to Daniel's website, to his book to the old DhO to here. You are to blame!!!!!!!!!

Nick

Very nice talk!!
I have a very similar story to that one of Nick!! I found buddhist geeks online and the very first podcast I heard was Kenneth's regular people can get enlightened, from there heard a few more and got to Ingram's and then went to his page, his book, DhO and here we are . Buddhist Geeks an a priceless informational tool for all of us in pursue of full enlightenment!!
with Metta,
JF

another voice to the chorus-- yeah Vince, you seem to have been an essential ingredient in getting people connected with this "you can do it" (if only you actually DO it) movement. Fantastic job man!
-Jake

Hear hear!

Thanks all. I'm delighted that my efforts w/ Buddhist Geeks have been of value in connecting you all with a practice / approach that is serving you.

Count me in on that. Buddhist Geeks has been invaluable to my practice. Many, many thanks.
-o

Remember that you can become a "patron" of Buddhist Geeks if you can spare a little.

Yes, become a micro-patron of Buddhist Geeks as a way to give back.

Great talk, Vince. Best of luck in this next phase of your practice. Like the others here, Buddhist Geeks has been life changing for me and has made practice something real, tangible and effective. It has become a doorway to access all kinds of incredible resources, particularly Kenneth and this site and Daniel's book and DhO.

So, out of curiosity, how did you first come across Daniel's book without having the benefit of Daniel's classic Buddhist Geeks podcasts to listen to?

Micro-patron. Good idea. I'll do that.

Good point right at the end, and it compliments the "Kenneth on Wandering Dharma" thread where people were talking about what makes sense to hold as KF community values.

Ron said "I for one want this to be a community that is characterized by its most salient trait - honesty. It's what really makes us who we are here. No one hides anything or pretends to be or not be anything. When people first encounter us, they may be shocked by the claims to attainments, direct language and dismissal of dogma - but if it is all put in the context of honesty, it can begin to make sense to someone who isn't familiar with us,"

Vince's talk brings up the point of a sense of humility, too. Any attainment becomes "another thing to let go of". And I don't mean this in some depressing, negative sense... but almost in the joyful, wonderous, and even humorous sense that "yes, honestly I have this attainment, but there is so much to life left to understand". I suppose that's feeling is true for any stage of attainment. It's one thing I actually sense in Kenneth, Vince -- and others, I was listing them but the list is long! -- that there is a sense of recognizing their accomplishments within a greater context/ expanse of life.

I probably didn't say all of that exactly right, but maybe it kinda makes sense. (edits to attempt to make clearer)

"So, out of curiosity, how did you first come across Daniel's book without having the benefit of Daniel's classic Buddhist Geeks podcasts to listen to?
"

Daniel had just finished medical school in Chapel Hill, NC and I met his old roommate in Raleigh (just down the road) while I was in undergrad. His roommate, also named Daniel, suggested it to a friend and I, as we'd just started getting into vipassana practice. He e-mailed us one of the super early versions of the book, I think he'd just finished writing it a year or so earlier. It was definitely good timing for me.

"Vince's talk brings up the point of a sense of humility, too. Any attainment becomes "another thing to let go of". And I don't mean this in some depressing, negative sense... but almost in the joyful, wonderous, and even humorous sense that "yes, honestly I have this attainment, but there is so much to life left to understand". I suppose that's feeling is true for any stage of attainment. It's one thing I actually sense in Kenneth, Vince -- and others, I was listing them but the list is long! -- that there is a sense of recognizing their accomplishments within a greater context/ expanse of life."

Thanks Betawave,

I'm glad there was some sense of humility that came through in the talk... It's definitely taken me a while to start to see this whole process from a humbled place, rather than a somewhat arrogant and righteous one. It's also quite humbling, that even after major shifts of identity (such as 4th path), there is obviously still a lifetime's work of learning to embody that recognition, and still so much to learn about the nature of realization as it relates to life.

I actually disagree with Daniel's view--if I understand it correctly--that the training in insight ends at 4th path. Many people I know, and I've also found this to be true, continue to develop insight and to have major shifts in their understanding of the nature of reality. One of my teachers (not in the pragmatic dharma scene) actually told me that in some ways the Arhant is the beginning of the path, not the end of it. That kind of bummed me out at the time. Now I see the wisdom of that perspective because it sees the spiritual path--which is none other than my life--as open-ended, not so closed, fixed, or utterly predictable. Then there's room for mystery, for the sacred, and for "not knowing." Talk about humbling.

"... in some ways the Arhant is the beginning of the path, not the end of it."

Well.... yeah

I can't really trust anyone who is not humble. They're likely to be into wasting time.

"I can't really trust anyone who is not humble. They're likely to be into wasting time."

Or creating a lot of problems. I just got a public letter from Eido Roshi where he said this about the scandals:

"Over time, I took your kindness for granted and arrogance grew in my heart. As a result, my sensitivity to feel the pain of others decreased. Now, as I reflect on the past, I realize how many people's feelings and trust in me were hurt by my words and deeds. Please accept my heartfelt apology."

I love the man, but his life has been one hell of a Koan for all of us. It seems no matter how enlightened you get, arrogance will always be something you need to watch out for.

"
I'm glad there was some sense of humility that came through in the talk... It's definitely taken me a while to start to see this whole process from a humbled place, rather than a somewhat arrogant and righteous one. It's also quite humbling, that even after major shifts of identity (such as 4th path), there is obviously still a lifetime's work of learning to embody that recognition, and still so much to learn about the nature of realization as it relates to life.

I actually disagree with Daniel's view--if I understand it correctly--that the training in insight ends at 4th path. Many people I know, and I've also found this to be true, continue to develop insight and to have major shifts in their understanding of the nature of reality. One of my teachers (not in the pragmatic dharma scene) actually told me that in some ways the Arhant is the beginning of the path, not the end of it. That kind of bummed me out at the time. Now I see the wisdom of that perspective because it sees the spiritual path--which is none other than my life--as open-ended, not so closed, fixed, or utterly predictable. Then there's room for mystery, for the sacred, and for "not knowing." Talk about humbling.
"


Nice talk, Vince. To take the example of classical Zen Buddhism, the opening of the Dharma Eye is generally the end of formal training under a teacher, but it is also only the beginning of genuine practice-realization.

We may then chose to follow the Hinayana path to totally extinguish the root of greed, hatred and delusion, or take up the Mahayana path to perfect the Six Paramita and eventually manifest the Three Bodies and the Five Prajna for the sake of all beings.

"
Nice talk, Vince. To take the example of classical Zen Buddhism, the opening of the Dharma Eye is generally the end of formal training under a teacher, but it is also only the beginning of genuine practice-realization.

We may then chose to follow the Hinayana path to totally extinguish the root of greed, hatred and delusion, or take up the Mahayana path to perfect the Six Paramita and eventually manifest the Three Bodies and the Five Prajna for the sake of all beings.
"

Hi Alex,

COuld you elaborate on the hinayana pah of totally extinguishing the root of greed, hatred and delusion. This is after 4th path?

Nick

"Ron said "...No one hides anything or pretends to be or not be anything..." "

You know, I was thinking about this more and there was something buried in what Ron said. 'To neither pretend to be [humility] or not be [honesty] anything.' Humility is really the same thing as honesty. Simple!

Hi Nick,
According to various traditional authoritative sources, an arhant is (amongst other things) freed from greed, hatred and delusion. We may consider that the 4 paths only refer to cycles of insight, but it doesn't necessarily mean that one should give up trying to reach the highest goals set by tradition at this stage (to eventually become a super-arhant). This is anyway a route that many Zen masters took, including the historical semi-legendary founder Bodhidharma who was already a great master when he decided to sit facing the wall for 9 years at Shaolin temple. Chatting with Chinese Ch'an/Zen monks this Summer, I realize that there are still hermits following this ascetic lifestyle nowadays, including those featured in the award winning documentary 'Amongst White Clouds'. Anyway, this is just a personal opinion on the subject.
Best,
Alex

That documentary is up on google video:
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5902279151658995270#

They really rough it!