Is this a perspective, a jhana or what?

Hi all,

since june (it was the summer solstice ) I have access to what I call 'the perspective', a mode of vision that apparently comes out of the witness practice.
The distance between me and the outer world is shortened, things are bigger and closer, it seems everything is here at my hand (a car on the other side of the street, for example).
A different way of browsing the real world.

Glimpses of it came earlier (febrauary/march), and lasted only few seconds, a mind shift after thinking about Kenneth's words about the non-dual and the space as a way to access it (pretty misterious for me, I'm pre 1st path).
Mind blowing at that time, and in the "summer solstice event", when it lasted almost two hours.

Now this 'perspective' is a sort of an habit, easily accessible (but not at will), so it is a regular pattern (and I learned from Kenneth that regular patterns are interesting...).
It seems more integrated, and moves through a scale of intensity (just like jhanas).

It happened once that this perspective (not so hard, just advertised in that occasion) collapsed for few seconds, and apparently there was only the remote building I was looking at and no more self. But this was a one time event, no regular pattern.

In formal practice I think I'm currently in Equanimity/4th jhana, and it seems I could have access to 5th and 6th jhana too. The third eye area is always active, even in daily activities if I just incline the mind to observation mode.
I have also access to a strange absorption (with eyes open) from 'the perspective': things get grainy, overshadowed, ultra 3d, goldish, holographic, with a matrix-like effect. This is a regular pattern.

Edited for typos and clarification.

(cont.)

I don't know if 'the perspective' has to do with non-dual practice, I suspect it could just be a formless realm with eyes open (and what about A&P? I always keep in mind Daniel's warning, A&P is a good candidate for everything).

But if I understood, Owen in the Episode1 of the Hamilton's Project connects the formless realms with non-dual practices'¦

And Kenneth says also in a recent thread to not indulge in the witness practice before 2nd path, or you get confused.

And I think I'm very confused right now'¦

Geppo,

Have you read Kenneth's new essay?

Hi mumuwu,

yes, I read it yesterday. This is why I used the word "grainy", it is from Kenneth's essay and perfectly matches my experience. The sense of wonder, too, fascination with trees, ecc.

Eventually I decided to start the thread, after 3 months of mumbling.

I dont' even know if I'm really practicing 2 gear, this is part of the question. Maybe I'm just spaced out with eyes open, or in a hypnagogic dead-end.

Nikolai and friends told me (in the thread The jhanic free for all) to stay in Equanimity and work to get fruition, avoiding to abide in 5th jhana and just get distracted, and they know what they say. I keep their advice, I'm just curious about what I tried to describe.

You know, the 'spacious' practice comes easy for me (but I don't know if it is useful at my point of development), and the last step of the first Path is such a struggle!

Edited for clarification

Hi Geppo - From what I can tell, you have eaten the red pill. Welcome to the wonders of non-dual awareness! If I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about the geeky details of advanced first gear practice now, as it should open up on its own. You may however resonate with Mahamudra or Dzogchen teachings at this stage.

"Hi Geppo - From what I can tell, you have eaten the red pill. Welcome to the wonders of non-dual awareness!" - Alex



I read your posts carefully since I found the Alex case study on this site more than a year ago... I'm a little moved and I hope you are right.

But I'm pretty much in the Theravada framework.... for example, the physio-energetic process which is my pivotal concept to understand what's going on (thanks Kenneth!) is running even if you switch to non dual practices? No energy controversy?

And need some good references, the MCTB of non-dual...

"I wouldn't worry too much about the geeky details of advanced first gear practice now" Alex
I wrote last step of 1st gear, but I meant the last step of 1st Path! Just in case...

Edited for clarification

As long as you observe the three characteristics of conditioned existence and avoid clinging to a particular state or experience nothing can go wrong. Everything will happen in due time. My intuition is that you are getting into what Daniel Ingram calls "emptiness in real time". Check his "Simple Model" in MCTB, keeping in mind that he doesn't make a distinction between the non-dual path and the physio-energetic process. I noticed that, regardless of their practice or tradition, people tend to follow the general lines outlined in Daniel's Simple Model.

"Check [Daniel Ingram's] "Simple Model" in MCTB, keeping in mind that he doesn't make a distinction between the non-dual path and the physio-energetic process."-Alex

It's important to note that Daniel not only did not make a distinction between the non-dual path and the physio-energetic process when he wrote MCTB, he explicitly rejected the former and was unaware of the latter. In other words, although he used the phrase "non-dual," he railed against non-dual traditions and practices; he was defining non-dual in a different way. See, for example, his essay, "Why The Notion That You Cannot Become What You Already Are is Such ********."

www.interactivebuddha.com/********.shtml

Daniel has only recently discovered the validity of what I call direct path teaching or "ruthless 3rd Gear" practices, coming in through the back door of Actualism. He has recently recanted and apologized for his earlier stance.

As for the Progress of Insight as a physio-energetic process, that is my own attempt to reconcile my experience with the Theravada maps. Daniel has reported to me that he does not experience his own progress as energetic phenomena and therefore has not adopted my physio-energetic model, preferring to use the traditional model of the 16 Insight Knowledges.

Hi Kenneth,

I have also observed a hell of a lot of physio-energetic phenomena associated with progress on the path. Why do you think some do experience it, and others don't? I often speculate that it is because of my years in the Goenka tradition practicing the sweeping method, being obsessed with just sensations/vibrations, ignoring everything else. Why do you think there are big differences in the way people experience progress, particularly with Daniel and yourself?

I wonder about that too, Nick. I had absolutely no interest in chakras, kundalini/chi, or anything else energy related. Second path came along, and a whole new world opened up.* I had to look around the internet to understand what might be happening.

Honest, I barely notice the energetic stuff now. It's all pretty well rooted out. The heart and stomach areas get active occasionally, but that's about it.

*Note: although others report along with me that energetic stuff gets heavy prior to and during 2nd path, this isn't necessarily so. At this point, I'm not willing to accept the increase in energetic activity as reliable criteria for any path attainment. It's more of a variable than a constant, from what I can tell.

Having started my so-called spiritual path with a form of kundalini yoga 22 years ago, I am a bit like Nikolai. Since I age 17, I feel everything as energy. I feel my body ans my emotions as a mass of vibrating energy. I feel the energy of people around me. I feel the energy of plants, trees and animals.

And therefore any practice, from Mahamudra to Self-inquiry or Mahasi Sayadaw Vipassana, passing by Western magick or Zen buddhism, everything naturaly feels (or felt) like a physio-energetic process leading to all kind of psychic and spiritual experiences, including non-dual experiences. It is therefore very difficult for me to make a clear distinction between a 'non-dual practice' and a 'physio-energetic development pratice' even if I understand the distinction intellectually.

Hi Alex ,

I will check the "Simple Model". I cited MCTB in the context of approaching Mahamudra or Dzogchen (I don't know anything about that matter), because his book is the major entry point to pragmatic dharma for a lot of people, but I read it only once and when I was working on the 2nd jhana (a gross-level understanding).

My framework comes more from Kenneth's writings (1st Gear): the physioenergetic process (starting with a 10 days Goenka retreat I suddenly felt the progress of insights and jhanas as energy-related) and the jhana-nana equivalence.

But I always doubted to be able to catch glimpses of 2nd gear, always off-cushion, with an open focus attitude, and this way of witnessing led to the perspective.

"Everything will happen in due time." - Alex

Yes! Always believe the bird!

Geppo, check out my latest thread posts on 3rd Gear and see if you recognize what I am pointing to. It's not yet clear to me whether you are describing a direct perception experience or an altered state having to do with jhanas and nanas. Remember that in direct mode, nanas and jhanas don't arise. I'm also curious about your comment that the perspective you are describing seems to develop through time. Can you say more about that?

Kenneth

This is an interesting issue. I can't find any great distinctions between energetic and non-energetic practices either. All states of mind--and this includes what people call the non-state of resting--seem to me associated with shifts in body's energetic state. The only differences I note are between the densities and flow types of vibrations. Many (though I hesitate to say all) of the higher mind states have smoother and sometimes effortless and seamless flows. Lower mind states are more dense, require effort, and seem to be more localized. Energy is external as well--this is the primary way, though not the the only, I recognize attainment in others.

A bit like Alex, I had my kundalini awakening at 18. Maybe it's a youth thing, but it's a total puzzle to me how people seem to move through states and stages and don't report much energetic phenomena. I used to think they were just fooling themselves. Now I wonder about real neurobiological differences. So many mysteries...

Hi Kenneth!

I already set a resolution to become one of your student after 1st Path

I checked the 3rd Gear threads and did not recognize the 'ground emotions in the body strategy'.
About feeling emotions, I think I'm embedded at that level. I can observe physical sensations and thoughts, but it is harder for mind states and feelings'¦ and can't locate feelings in the body (my own Goenka-way of practicing was more about the flow of physical sensations).

I understand this:

'Now look around. See like an artist. Notice the brightness and immediacy of colors. See how shapes and patterns captivate the attention. Wood grain patterns are fascinating. That translucent green plastic yoga ball is a visual feast. The visual texture of fabrics is delightful.'

I recognize this (from the 3rd Gear: The Toll Booth):

'(...) It feels like consciously not allowing feelings to "stick" of not getting my awareness get absorbed in it. Simply noticing how the feeling arises, and how I "let it go" or hand it over actually sort of "centers" me in a totally undisturbed state. All there is around at the very present moment is a direct awareness of the now and it feels as if for the first time things are experienced in a true, unfiltered way.' '“ foolbutnotforlong

I call this The Witness/2nd gear, and for me it's NOT about noticing feelings, but thoughts, physical sensations, sights and sounds. The sense of self is still present, it is not just perception, and there is some energy in it (I call it the happy watcher). I don't' know if this energy is a jhanic factor and I know you said that the Witness is trans-jhanic, I just notice some energy and bliss.
This mode of perception gave me a big insight (aha!) on A&P of things, and I assumed it was a harder 2nd jhana (this is why I cited A&P as a diagnostic tool in post #1).

(cont.d)

After a while I discovered a non dual site and recognized '˜the mood' (it was before the birth of KFD and could not understand this non dual thing), and also found some description of PCE by AF people and I resonate with that (and PCE was first described as the A&P of AF).
Then I read about the 3 gears. And believed to recognize the Witness in the Alex case study, when you said 'take with you the witness off-cushion and walk around'.
But I always doubted about being in a Witness state or in A&P.
I like your identification of AF PCE with 3rd Gear, it simplifies the landscape.

Then I had the third eye area development (the crown is still silent, maybe this is the reason why I'm still pre 1st Path) and I gained more confidence in accessing 5th and 6th jhana and label the previous '˜mood' as the Witness.
My way of cultivating it was a sort of choiceless awareness based on sights and sounds, an open focus attitude.
Shinzen Young in general terms talks about coming back to the Source by opening the focus (even in the visual field), a professors on Buddhist Geeks says that opening the focus is the relaxed mode af attention of the animal inside us, in absence of close menaces from the environment. And there was also the Open Focus thread on your site. I just tried to do that.

With stable access to (what I call) 5th and 6th jhanas, my Witness gained a spacious quality, and cultivating it looking at the horizon I went to the perspective (this in the summer solstice, the previous event came out of the blue, thinking about your own words!). For me energy and jhana are pretty the same thing, this is why I could explain the perspective as a formless realm with eyes open.
I cannot locate the Witness in the back of the head, for me the activity is on the front.

The development through time of the perspective was a spacious quality adding or replacing the previous Witness mood (mood, perspective, I really don't know how to call this stuff). When I cultivate it, I shift into the perspective after a while (up to 1 hour). Before that there is nothing, no jhana or nana progress, but this constant activity (tension or relaxation) in the third eye area, which can open to a spacious feeling in the head (it has not only a mental quality, but also a physical quality for me). And then, after a while, things are closer and bigger.
I'm not cultivating the perspective right now, but for a week I went there every day walking around.
The degree of closeness and the width of things is what I call the softness or hardness of the perspective. Even today, in my car, inclining the mind to the perspective the outside world went out of the ordinary geometry. If I cultivate it, even out of practice there is this background oddity of the real world (I call this the integration process).
I didn't mention, but there are also color shifts: fascination with green and red, then yellow, then blue, then a bigger luminosity of all things. This process started last november, with the development of the third eye. Fascination with trees, patterns, sense of wonder.
The strange absorption grainy/shadowed/olographic/goldish ecc. came out of the perspective the first time (july), and then showed itself even out of the perspective.

A completely different thing, at least for me, was the collapsing of the perspective for a few seconds, with the absence of the self. This for me was the major insight into a positive version of anatta, and I am tempted to really call that the 3rd gear, validating the previous stuff as 2nd gear.
You say that the Witness ignite the process of dissolving the I. This is my way of reading that experience.

Sorry for being a little verbose, but I needed to place all the pieces on the table.