Are you sick?

If you were sick, wouldn't you just want to be well? Would you engage in complex ontological discussions about the "true nature" of wellness? That's what sick people do do distract themselves from feeling sick.

In this moment, ask yourself, "Am I sick?" You know the answer. It's either yes or no. If yes, ask yourself if there is anything you can do about it. Now do that.

THis got a chuckle out of me. I love the fact that my mind said , " yes I'm sick! , I'm a sick puppy."
I guess that's progress right? Love your directness Kenneth very refreshing.

This certainly is bold and direct.

To be equally direct-- no, I am not sick. In any way. So, no thanks on the chemotherapy.

How can one resist to the buzz one gets out of ontological discussions?

I admit I am powerless over my addiction to...

^_^

Grounding time.

Incredible... the logic of the PCE state seems so completely undefeatable.

And I can predict the question that comes after that one: why not "just be well" all the time? Why the boddhisatva trip? What do others have to benefit from me being unwell?

Interestingly, Daniel went through a similar process. If you look at the videos here:

(uploaded 6 may) interactivebuddha.com/files/ (AF1, AF2, AF3)

Although unfortunately you can not hear Tarin's contribution to the conversation, you can clearly hear that Daniel was much more unsure about pursuing actual freedom, around that date, than he has shown himself to be just two months after starting the practice. On June 25, what he actually wrote was:

(Daniel) "but at this point I can say that the sooner the PCE stays forever the sooner I will have gotten the final thing I was looking for ..."

Which, one should note, used to be getting rid of insight disease, but now it is something else, it is having the PCE stay forever.

Do you think you are going through the same process Kenneth? Do you think there is really any argument that stands against the PCE? Let me give you another quote by Daniel; I was asking what "PCE Daniel" has to say about the arguments that "Cycle Daniel" came up with against the PCE:

(Daniel) "PCE Daniel need merely respond to Cycle Daniel with the PCE itself, which is all the argument that is needed at this point."

(All of this is in the "AF and Insight: PCE Mode and Cycling Mode" thread on DhO)

Incredible, undefeatable logic hun? Is this where it is going, is the PCE slowly going to take over to the point that everything else seems "silly" in comparison? Everything else is, by comparison, a sort of "sickness"? The "pod person"? And I suppose these questions are just a distraction?

Bruno

Thanks for the link Bruno, very interesting.
I wonder why Tarin is muted on this video?

edit: clarification

Ditto on the link thanks!!!

Feeling better already : )

Yes, there are two sound tracks in the video, one has daniel's voice, the other has Tarin's. If you use VLC, you can switch by going to the menu Audio->Audio Track.

Ahhh! great, thanks.

"This certainly is bold and direct.

To be equally direct-- no, I am not sick. In any way. So, no thanks on the chemotherapy."

I'll second that. Pretty straightforward. Thanks anyway!

It's really great to know you are perfectly happy with your emotional lives. Of course it could be the case that since you never wore glasses you don't know you have bad vision... the point is that your standards might change if you do this practice, just like Daniel's standards have changed, just like Kenneth's standards seem to be changing --- apparently among long-term practitioners of the direct mode they are considered "higher" standards.

I wonder if your equally direct statement ("no") would really hold against the convincing power of the direct mode, or if you would change your mind and say "heck, in comparison to ->this<- I really was suffering from some kind of sickness".

(For myself, the answer to Kenneth's original question is clearly yes: I have been a severe case of insight disease, and I can't wait to see the end of it. Today I realized, after listening to the hurricane ranch discussion "doing it vs. getting it done", that I have given myself complete and full and thorough and utter authorization to get the damned arhat thing over and done with!)

Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to do some meditation... love to you all

" Today I realized, after listening to the hurricane ranch discussion "doing it vs. getting it done", that I have given myself complete and full and thorough and utter authorization to get the damned arhat thing over and done with!)

Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to do some meditation... love to you all "

Awesome! Hurry up!

"... the point is that your standards might change if you do this practice..."

Maybe. Or maybe not. To be in the business of making these kinds of assumptions puts one on risky ground.

As I sit here I keep thinking about my experience and I'm reminded that it just IS. It's always been that way, though I didn't realize it. So I spent time and effort learning that it just IS and how I might be able to appreciate that. This is not a happy or sad truth. It's just a truth. Being able to just be with what arises is what I have strived for lo these many years. What arises is sometimes very nice. Sometimes it hurts. Sometimes it makes me cry. Or laugh. Or want to run away. I see that it's all just what happens, and I see no terribly compelling reason to change that, have no bone crushing desire to experience this IS-ness in some other mode as a permanent way of being. Can I? Sure I can. Sometimes I do. It's about choice, I think. So maybe we should just let folks make theirs.

And as for Daniel and Kenneth, let's be patient. I think these things play out over pretty long time scales sometimes, and it would be foolish to make snap judgments, as Kenneth has been wise to point out already.

I think this beautiful, warm California day has made me mellow.

"
I think this beautiful, warm California day has made me mellow.

"

It's that awesome Modesto vibe.

"And as for Daniel and Kenneth, let's be patient. I think these things play out over pretty long time scales sometimes, and it would be foolish to make snap judgments, as Kenneth has been wise to point out already.
"

I have been sitting on this comment for more than a week now, wondering if I should say it out loud and, if so, on which of the growing number of AF-inspired threads. So, I'll just say it since Chris gives a nice segue opportunity:

While I am pretty much tuning out of the AF/PCE discussions because I simply don't get it, I am a little concerned about how it seems to be steamrolling through here as it did at DhO. But that said, if the mentors I look up to, like Kenneth, Daniel, and Tarin, are embracing this thing, whatever the "thing" really is, there must be something significant to it, right? So if we are to really, really get a TON of value out of "Kenneth's experiment", I think that at least those three individuals need to share their experiences with each other and come up with a common lingo that properly describes the experience. These three (at least) have a chance to be like the Burmese were to the Path of Insight (if the history in MCTB is correct) and take AF or whatever is *should* be called out of the murkiness that is Richard's site and put it into its proper context, integrate it, clarify it, simplify it, and make it usable by all, if it is truly usable.

In my happy little world, that is what I would like to see.

" I am a little concerned about how it seems to be steamrolling through here as it did at DhO. But that said, if the mentors I look up to, like Kenneth, Daniel, and Tarin, are embracing this thing, whatever the "thing" really is, there must be something significant to it, right? So if we are to really, really get a TON of value out of "Kenneth's experiment", I think that at least those three individuals need to share their experiences with each other and come up with a common lingo that properly describes the experience. These three (at least) have a chance to be like the Burmese were to the Path of Insight (if the history in MCTB is correct) and take AF or whatever is *should* be called out of the murkiness that is Richard's site and put it into its proper context, integrate it, clarify it, simplify it, and make it usable by all, if it is truly usable.

In my happy little world, that is what I would like to see."

Hi Tom,

I feel like AF is catching on in here because it's simply the time for it. Many of the higher pathers here in KFD are quickly experiencing tremendous success with Kenneth's techniques and aids, and although the insight being gained by attaining higher paths has profound repercussions in our lives, 3rd gear (AF) brings a dimension that cannot be attained by simply reachinig arahatship. I know that specially for those 3rd and 4th path yogis that have been working on 3rd gear are experiencing great gains in 3rd gear practice and are pushing towards the continuous development of such here in KFD (myself included), so I think the TON of value is not only being already gained by many yogis, but also is being increased by our discussing our findings and experiences here in KFD.

I'm certain that Kenneth, Tarin and Daniel share experiences and techniques constantly and are always looking for ways to refine them as well (and Kenneth seems to always be looking for new, fresh and useful analogies and tricks to facilitate the practice).

in short, I would not worry too much about it, Tom. I really think this one is taking its course, and will stand totally on its own pretty soon!
JF

"Hi Tom,

I feel like AF is catching on in here because it's simply the time for it. Many of the higher pathers here in KFD are quickly experiencing tremendous success with Kenneth's techniques and aids, and although the insight being gained by attaining higher paths has profound repercussions in our lives, 3rd gear (AF) brings a dimension that cannot be attained by simply reachinig arahatship. I know that specially for those 3rd and 4th path yogis that have been working on 3rd gear are experiencing great gains in 3rd gear practice and are pushing towards the continuous development of such here in KFD (myself included), so I think the TON of value is not only being already gained by many yogis, but also is being increased by our discussing our findings and experiences here in KFD. "

Terminology IS really changing fast. Are Third Gear and Actual Freedom now one in the same?

"Terminology IS really changing fast. Are Third Gear and Actual Freedom now one in the same?

"

More like mutually subsumed.

"Terminology IS really changing fast. Are Third Gear and Actual Freedom now one in the same?"-telecaster

I don't use the words that way, Mike. "Actual Freedom" is a brand. It is the name of a movement, some would say a religion or a cult. I am wary of all such movements and the name "Actual Freedom" makes me uncomfortable.

As always, when speaking of meditative attainments, we have to keep reminding ourselves that they don't belong to anyone or to any group. Like arahatship, direct perception mode is a human thing, not a religious thing.

That's also why I avoid using the term "PCE:" it is a brand name that Richard and the Actualists use in a proprietary way. So I go out of my way to find other ways to talk about it. If indeed the direct perception mode that I am experimenting with is the same as the PCE, then we have clear evidence that one does not have to embrace Actualism in order to gain the benefits of the attainment. I hope everyone can see the importance of this; we are promoting open-source dharma here as opposed to proprietary rights to human experience and knowledge.

I will keep reminding everyone that this is an experiment; I don't know yet how to fit what I am experiencing into my overall conceptual framework and at this moment that is not my focus. I do want to share what is happening all along the way, though, so I hope you will all bear with me.

""Terminology IS really changing fast. Are Third Gear and Actual Freedom now one in the same?"-telecaster

I don't use the words that way, Mike. "Actual Freedom" is a brand. It is the name of a movement, some would say a religion or a cult. I am wary of all such movements and the name "Actual Freedom" makes me uncomfortable.


That's also why I avoid using the term "PCE:" it is a brand name that Richard and the Actualists use in a proprietary way. So I go out of my way to find other ways to talk about it. If indeed the direct perception mode that I am experimenting with is the same as the PCE, then we have clear evidence that one does not have to embrace Actualism in order to gain the benefits of the attainment. I hope everyone can see the importance of this; we are promoting open-source dharma here as opposed to proprietary rights to human experience and knowledge.
"

Wow! I did NOT know that the Actualists use this terms in such way. Sorry if I've confused people using some of these terms interchangeably. I guess Imma have to go read up on the whole Actualist movement and see what they are about.

Thanks so much for clarifying, Kenneth

I don't have any attainments under my belt nor a very strong theoretical knowledge of Buddhism,
but at the face of it, to me, it looks like people are getting rid of suffering in stages: first the big chunks, then more subtle, more subtle, and later the most subtle core of suffering.

(And by suffering I mean any kind of mental agitation, struggle, anger, resentment, sorrow, and so on - however anatta it may be)

Some get rid of most and are content with that, for whatever reasons, and others wish to remove the very core of the thing.

I realized this by Kenneth's quote of Ajahn Cha saying something like "Are you suffering? then you have more work to do."

I am very glad this discussion is happening and do not wish to detract from it, however...

Bruno didn't know that the files recording our conversation were private, and thought that I had just forgotten to link to them. The opposite is true: they were not linked to as I didn't want them public, as while they do discuss AF, they mention specific people and a few things that we didn't want out in public and so I had them there in a way that was not linked so that the few people who I let watch them could get a link pointing to those and see them without them being widely open. They have been deleted.

I don't think there is any new material there that can't be found elsewhere, such as here or at the DhO or the AF main site.

I do want to make one small point about terminology: just because phrases like PCE or AF are used doesn't imply branding in a formal sense necessarily, just as we use the word arahatship or rigpa or whatever just as more terms to try to convey points.

I think that the terms are good enough on their own with implying anything culty, but this is just my opinion, and if we adopt new terms to describe the same things, this will likely just either require constant conversion in the minds of those who are trying to follow these discussions, or lead to artificial divisions of the type that already abound, such as "are enlightenment and awakening the same thing?" etc. which just detracts from the main points of clear communication and being able to cross between sources without so much complexity.

So far I haven't found any problems sorting out my feelings re: Richard's presentation style from what useful information there is about the techniques and experiences and terms used to describe them, but if there is a real fear that this group can't do that, then this is a more fundamental point that should be addressed head on.

Daniel,

I agree on the af stuff. I found that a lot of what is written on the site regarding pces and how to get them to be valuable. At times the language is a bit strange or overly complicated (not in the usage of terms like pcs, sensuousness, apperception, etc. More so things like twixt, naught, etc.), but once you get a handle on the terminology it works ok. I found the threads over on dho (such as yours on cycling/pce mode) to be invaluable.

Thanks for looking into this stuff. You've taken a lot of unnecessary flak.

I have just watched Kenneth's videos on youtube.
They reminded me a lot about when I was first experimenting with the practice maybe 6 years ago.
I was on a ten day retreat and trying to find a new way of practice.
So I made a decison not to try and mediate.
I sat on a chair in the shrine room and while everyone else sat like yogis I slouched and sat with one foot crossed over the other.
I spent hours looking round the room not really doing anything or looking at things.
When any stuff came up about not getting anywhere I chilled out felt the body and breathed.
When pain came pain came.
When joy came joy came.
I stared out my feet they were beautiful.
One night I was in a samadhi staring at my feet for two hours not moving.
I got really really bored but didn't let myself do anything about it.
This was the beginning of a deep process of unlearning.
Learning to be with everything.
That simple.
It began to feel that all the imaginary universes I created were starting to be thinned out.
I think I found it easier because I chose to only do one (non)practice (this is not a recommendation more a reflection on temprement)