Frution while noting out loud

Kenneth, since this is your most recomended method for getting to first path (noting out loud) -- have you ever seen anyone have a fruition during outloud noting?
That must be interesting. There has to be a stopping of the noting during the frution, right?
For how long?
Does one then continue noting or is it cool at this point to continue silently or just notice what is happening post frution?
Or, seriously, is the outloud noting just an effective way to get to high E and from that point one can go on silently?
I used to do a lot of outlould noting from about last summer to last winter, especially early on in my sits, as a way to settle in, get more concentated, and get real.
But, once I was able to get to high equanimity consistently I stopped it.

Hi Mike,

My wife was noting continuously (but silently) when she got stream entry, so noting and Path moment fruitions are compatible. Just now I tried it out and found that I was able to have multiple fruitions while noting aloud. There doesn't seem to be any conflict at all; the fruitions were of the momentary variety, of course. And if they were longer, I would just stop talking for awhile.

When in high equanimity, as you say, you can drop the noting altogether, then resume it when you get distracted.

" Just now I tried it out and found that I was able to have multiple fruitions while noting aloud. There doesn't seem to be any conflict at all; the fruitions were of the momentary variety, of course. And if they were longer, I would just stop talking for awhile."

My silent noting is improving a lot. But I have a bit of an issue noting outloud. Have you ever done that thing where you talk into a mic when you are wearing headphones and the delay/reverb trips you up so that you can't talk smoothly? That's sort of what it's like.

Actually I have kind of held off with booking practice scessions with Kenneth because I am so tripped up when I try and note outloud, and I know he's gonna ask me to do it. So I have a bit of stage fright.

I can see a big bonus with the feedback loop and with being able to communicate with a teacher in realtime, but at this point for me noting outloud feels about as natural as sending morse code with a slege hammer.

One thing I find odd is that, when noting aloud, the things I note are quite different from the silent noting. Or more precisely, a subset. It seems like when I note out loud my noting is mostly limited to physical sensations, whereas when I note silently there is a more even balance between physical things and mental formations.

I don't know if that is an impediment, or even significant.

Tom,

Have you seen this?:

If you are prone to sloth and torpor, as I appear to be, noting out loud really helps. I think Kenneth is right on the money when he says that a lot of people aren't making progress because they are spacing out and in la-la land 90 percent of the time when they're trying to practice. This is worsened by the fact that a lot of people seem to think that just "resting the mind," in addition to being pleasant, also leads to some kind of magic purification of being that will ultimately culminate in enlightenment. Put those two things together and you have this flat-line thing going on.
I just finished a 60-minute sit in which the sloth and torpor was so tremendous that noting out loud was the only way I stood any chance of being present at all--otherwise I would have been basically asleep the entire time.
At other times, though, I think yogis might sit down feeling energized, alert and present. At that point, silent noting is probably fine.
Noting the rise and fall of the abdomen as the primary object is hard if you're noting out loud, but with khanika samadhi you don't have to keep returning to the primary object, right? Instead you're just noting sensations as they arise once per second. I also have a lot of resistance to noting out loud. Today, I started my sit with the label "resistance" and went ahead and gave it a shot. If the resistance has something to do with meditation being my own private Idaho, so to speak, I feel like I should just note it and move on. However, as with Mark, it might be the case that some people really do have more difficulty with this method than others and that they do better with silent noting, which certainly works. Just my two cents...

I can relate to what Mark says. After doing some drills with Kenneth and practicing noting out loud, I like it better.

Now when I go back to silent noting, my practice just seems weak in comparison.

"Tom,

Have you seen this?:
"

Shinzen Young makes some great points here. Thanks for the link, mumuwu. I do see where basic laziness is part of my resistance to noting out loud. Very interesting stuff...

"My silent noting is improving a lot. But I have a bit of an issue noting outloud. ...at this point for me noting outloud feels about as natural as sending morse code with a slege hammer."

Mark, I went through this too (and still do occasionally) and getting ready for my weekly call-in with Kenneth was my motivation! You're probably just a few sits from getting this down. You need to expand your noting vocabulary to be able to simply note all the "trouble" your having

These are in frequent use in my noting: awkwardness, unclear, confusion, stupidness, spaceyness, fear, confusion, blankness, frustration, difficulty (and then usually, similing, humor, joy -- because it's funny how noting disembeds you so quickly, what a relief!)

or to use your words: anticipation, tripping up, fright, unnatural, delay, not smooth, trying...

Work a bit on your vocabulary and then dedicate your sit to trying to see the "trouble" happen and note away!

" But I have a bit of an issue noting outloud. Have you ever done that thing where you talk into a mic when you are wearing headphones and the delay/reverb trips you up so that you can't talk smoothly? That's sort of what it's like.

<snip>
I can see a big bonus with the feedback loop and with being able to communicate with a teacher in realtime, but at this point for me noting outloud feels about as natural as sending morse code with a slege hammer."

This happens to me when i note outloud as well. It becomes the mental equivalent of tripping over the furniture and walking into walls.

"One thing I find odd is that, when noting aloud, the things I note are quite different from the silent noting. Or more precisely, a subset. It seems like when I note out loud my noting is mostly limited to physical sensations, whereas when I note silently there is a more even balance between physical things and mental formations.
"

I know what you mean about the physical sensations when noting aloud. I can get into a string of "seeing-hearing-warm/cool" that becomes robotic and takes me into discursiveness. I'm so embedded in the vedana and mind states I verbalize through (around?) them like they're nonexistant. If I note silently I'm still embedded in the vedana and mind states, but figuring out what they are is like doing an excavation project.

I'm new to teh noting... I just had my first session with Kenneth almost 2 weeks ago.

I've also been noting since a session with Kenneth 2 weeks ago. At first, I just hit a wall- the moment I started noting, I wanted to drift right off to sleep. I broke out when I started determinedly noting "Sleepiness" and whether it was weak, medium, or intemse. The sleepiness then became a very powerful goad, and I quickly got to states I used to think of as very rare and exotic.

For the moment, my principle is "Find the 'Elephant In The Room'" (in your case Bauseer, maybe note 'robotic' or 'discursiveness' along with a measure of intensity, size, length of that feeling?). To mangle metaphors, Steer straight toward the elephant in the room because it is the key!!

"Tom,

Have you seen this?:
"

No, but thank you very much for the link! Very interesting discussion around the topic. I wish I had 28h to catch up on all his 172 videos.

"You need to expand your noting vocabulary to be able to simply note all the "trouble" your having."

That's good advice thanks. I appreciate all the comments in this thread. And the youtube link.