Not a Stage

Yes, I did, didn't I?

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I think we should allow this thread to be whatever it wants to be. I can start a new practice thread at some point.

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Hahaha!, the same thing happened to "4th gear gnosis". We're just waiting for our next opportunity to talk about "what we know" =P

I have a question about "I don't know" as implemented in our practice, especially if it's the guiding principle (more on that in a second). Doesn't having that as our guide lead us down some blind alleys? See, what's nice about having some theory, some concept, some map, some path to at least glance at once in a while, is that we don't get lost, or that we may not get lost quite so often. It just seems to me that "I don't know" is a very difficult, complicated and potentially confusing guide. Isn't the 4 Path Theravada model a theory, a map, a guide, a path? Do we know that, or do we not know that? How do we know what we know or, conversely, how do we know what we don't know? At what point in our practice should we adopt "I don't know" as our guide?

Also, in a sneaky way I suspect even "I don't know" is a guide, right? I mean, we might have to say "I don't know" to everything that comes down the road. We'd have to try everything to satisfy "I don't know" and at the point that we try something and it doesn't work as advertised, do we then know? Or can't we ever know? We've decided, and please include me in this, that some practices aren't worth our energy and time. How did we make that decision?

Now, I'm making this all sound a little silly so that I can point out what might be some problematic issues with "I don' know" and there are probably answers to these questions that will make sense. So.... what are they?

As one possible partial answer to your question, Chris, I think "don't know" is yet another strategy for practice and realization. It makes for a piss-poor ontology or epistemology, in my opinion.

Take 'anatta' (nonself), for instance. Is that a fact, or a strategy, or both, or neither? I think it's pretty useless to talk about, let alone philosophize about, as it usually only leads to despair or pathological behavior and nihilism. But looking into suffering and its causes, we can use anatta as a way to let go.

I think "don't know" works in a similar way. It's an incredibly useful tool used to cut away at the obstacles that arise when our egos freeze around certain ideas or beliefs. This type of thing happens a lot as we make progress, as we have lots of evidence that the Truth is a certain way. Questioning these so-called truths leads to the realization that we are not sure, and there can be a release that trades places with the frozen ego-identity.

I don't think it's that we really don't know anything. That's pretty useless to talk about. In the spirit of pragmatism and good practice, we should look for the ways in which applying this strategy leads to what we're after.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

So, Jackson, it's useful if used selectively, in certain domains?

To expand a little on what Jackson said:
I think not knowing or don't know mind is a practice method, a technique, to give one the ability to be constantly looking at experience with a fresh empty mind so that one will be able to constantly have the ability to have some ORIGINAL insights.
One can be a person who knows a lot of stuff, even a lot of stuff about dharma while at the same time moment to moment being empty, open and ready for something new.
It doesn't mean one is precluded from having opinions and having conversations about those opinions. Just be ready to be wrong.

I have a good friend whose eloquent 'questioning eyebrow' pops into my mind's eye-- after a decade of watching his face as we converse-- just as I'm gathering steam on a runaway train of thought. It says, 'REALLY?' It says, 'Are you SURE about that?'-- but in such an amused, and friendly, way that it actually stops me in my tracks when necessary. Sometimes I laugh; sometimes I think, 'Yeah, I'm sure-- but I could definitely come at this less forcefully.' And sometimes I think, 'No, this NEEDS full steam ahead.'

'I don't know' can be an extremely tricky fixed position of its own-- with a built-in 'plausible deniability.' And it's not what you'd say to your kid about some sort of risky behavior they were considering.

I like the way J. Krishnamurti used to talk about "fields," sort of as a way of describing the different ways one's mind or awareness can be engaged. I don't think it is the same as "strata."
anyway, there is the "field" in which one is thinking and developing opinons and learning facts and techniques.
And there is the "field" in which one is just choicelessly aware (not knowing) and looking intently.
One can be choiceless aware of what is going on in the thinking/learning field, which is great because then one can see exactly what that is, how thoughts arise, how learning happens, how mistakes happen, how fantasy and illusion happens, how it feels to "fall from grace."
The thinking/learning field is very small and limited compared to the choiceless awareness field (one of the reasons why it can be watched so closely). This is one of the places disembedding is so effective and so usefull.
The less the choiceless awareness "knows" the better able it is to see what is really going on in the thinking/learning field.

I thought to chime in with some of my reflections on what's recently going on here.
My reaction to Daniel's experiment and Kenneth's experiment is: "Wow, these people, to whom I looked up to and who provided me with much reassurance that I am headed in a good direction to reduce my suffering, are now saying that they are reducing more and more of their suffering, in a way that they didn't think was possible. This is great news for me, because I want to alleviate suffering. This is why I started practice, and this is what's driving me now."

And although I also intellectualize loads about how this lines up with that, and how what this guy is talking about lines up with what that guy is talking about, what matters to me most, is that I know that at the moment by doing Vipassana, 1st gear practice, I am working towards less suffering, I reap the current benefits, and I know that down the line, when I'm done with the 4 paths, there will be people who are skilled in helping me move further.

Just having a conversation with Kenneth on Skype now for an hour really helped me to understand what I'm going through in regards to the progress of insight, and provided me with more confidence and courage to continue the momentum. So 1st gear is where its at for me, and probably I assume for all those who are not yet 4th path, and Kenneth is very helpful in that - I dont see how he's abandoned it (or the rest of the 3 gear practices), which is the sense I get from some posts sometimes.

(I don't mean to sound arrogant or anything, this is just how I feel and think at this moment and I hope this will be helpful

Making a practice out of "I don't know", or using it as a guiding principle:

That resonates with me. My guiding principle is, "not fooling myself". So when I think I "know" something for sure, I can question it by looking for the ways I'm fooling myself with this knowledge. This can be as coarse as silly rationalizations, or as subtle as the sense of ownership regarding certain sensations or even this sense of ownership.

So it's not about not ever knowing things - it's about not making up stuff out of ignorance. If I make somethin up out of ignorance, I'm fooling myself, and then I'm sure to suffer from it.

Cheers,
Florian

Great discussion!

In short, I think "don't know mind" is no longer useful when it becomes a settling point. As in, "Well, I guess I just don't know." That cuts investigation off at the root, which isn't usually helpful at all. The ego just latches on to "I don't know" and rests, thinking itself to be quite clever.

"I don't know" can be a preconception, which can then cover over whatever could be seen in the moment without preconceptions. There's a questioning quality to "don't know mind" that is anything but dull, quiet ignorance or aloofness.

So yes, useful sometimes. Useful when, as a strategy, it opens us up to the moment, come what will. Letting go of what we think we know can open us up. I guess we have to let go of knowing that we don't know, if you catch my drift.

Generating the awareness to see that the process of thinking and learning and reflecting, etc. is just a small part of things might be what happens at the stage of "mind and body."
possible?

I really appreciate yabidb's reaction, believing it to be balanced, open minded, mature, and basically sane. I also thank CMarti for his generous offer to let this thread go where it wishes.

I should note that I also have also not abandoned anything, and still help support those practitioners who are trying for the paths, concentration states, powers, moral aspects of living, and all the rest, as do multiple other people who find AF and related perceptual technologies to also be helpful, with Tarin actually being one of the most diligent and prolific responders at the DhO when people have vipassana and concentration-related questions, and Trent also being quite helpful in those regards, and obviously Kenneth works tirelessly all day with people on his 3 Gear practices to help end suffering, so your insights are of real value for de-dramifying this illusory schism.

Thus, contrary to some grand diametric opposition between these things, we find an expansion, an enhancement, a broadening of options and possible avenues of exploration and suffering reduction for people to utilize or not as they feel is appropriate for themselves. I wish long life to those communities of mature practitioners whose goals are the reduction of suffering and artificial dualities and the enhancement of clarity and wisdom.

As to "I don't know", I believe that if it adds a freshness of perspective that allows clarity regarding experience to be less filtered through the concepts of habit and assumption, it may be of real value.

"As to 'I don't know', I believe that if it adds a freshness of perspective that allows clarity regarding experience to be less filtered through the concepts of habit and assumption, it may be of real value." ~Daniel

Woo hoo!

We are all treading similar paths. Keeping an open mind, ending belief, not projecting yourself and drawing your own conclusions. Becoming conscious of your uncouncious habits and allowing the intellect to choose. An invetsigation into the 4 Noble truths.

"As to "I don't know", I believe that if it adds a freshness of perspective that allows clarity regarding experience to be less filtered through the concepts of habit and assumption, it may be of real value.
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Daniel; if not for the may be and the believing, that sounded like "you don't know".

Kenneth: "I can barely tolerate even the minimal religious posturing of the Tibetan Buddhists who post here, let alone the dogma of teacher-oriented traditions. In other words, this site is not the place for Actualists, Meher Baba devotees, practitioners of Baha'i or Christians. Discussions of the merits of those systems have no place here..."

A hearty "Amen" from a confirmed (and apparently, permanent) member of the (Dark) Knights of the Round Table. Dogma and religious posturing are an anathema to me, especially at this point.....

"so your insights are of real value for de-dramifying this illusory schism. - Daniel"

Thanks Daniel.

I think that this is a very important point you made here and that I hope it is clear to everyone, because if it isn't, people miss out.

There is really no schism, no 'bait and switch', or anything like that, or at least that's how I see it.

"There is really no schism, no 'bait and switch', or anything like that, or at least that's how I see it."

But there can be, and sometimes are, legitimate issues to raise and to discuss. I'd prefer not to overdo them, too, Yadid, but to pretend they're not real is not a smart move. in my experience. What I think we should do, instead, is keep listening to each other and talking. Talking, not shouting, not blaming and not classifying one another.

Again, JMHO.

"What I think we should do, instead, is keep listening to each other and talking. Talking, not shouting, not blaming and not classifying one another. - Chris

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I agree Chris. Your posts seem legitimate to me, I hope I didn't come across as dismissive or anything like that, I just wanted to share my point of view on this, along with all the others

"These two are fools. Which two? The one who doesn't see his/her transgression, and the one who doesn't rightfully pardon another who has confessed his/her transgression. These two are fools.

"These two are wise. Which two? The one who sees his/her transgression as a transgression, and the one who rightfully pardons another who has confessed his/her transgression. These two are wise." --Anguttara Nikaya II.21

Apologies for my part in aggravating the rawness of what I am realizing is fresh heartache and for the degree of distraction it may have caused. Owing to life stuff, I missed the chronology of a lot of this 'schism' (or however one chooses name it) when I mostly tuned out these corners of on-line dharma world for 6+ months . My concerns remain what they are, but I might have expressed them with more finesse.

Clinging to fixed views is suffering. But there is no reconciliation in denial--thus no peace.