The Interplay of Jhana and Nana

Hello All-
For the past two weeks I've been experimenting with entering my usual Vipassana practice via specific Jhanas to see what effects it may have on concentration, duration of sitting, and the relationship between nanas and jhanas, etc. I haven't come across any literature or discussions on this, and yet it seems like something that MUST have been done before. Thought I'd reach out and see if anyone here has any experience with this kind of exercise.
The results I've noticed so far are, in a nutshell, pretty interesting, but not exactly thourough at this point. First and Second jhanas seem to bring the first three stages of Insight into view rather quickly, but I have a hard time discerning the differences between the two approaches beyond that. Entering from 3rd seems more clearly body-oriented and with a deeper sense of equanimity right out of the gate. Moving thru the nanas is clear and almost mechanical, with a shifting sensation not unlike moving between jhanas during samatha practice.
Entering from 4th jhana is most impressive in it's effects, probably why I've most often worked with this route recently. The 4th nana is quickly approached, for me, which is in within ten minutes or so, and Dark Night stages follow with precision, instead of the big chunk of aversion that it once appeared to be. For better or for worse, this has helped in examining an otherwise unsavory part of practice with more clarity!
As a pre-stream winner, I've found this kind of exploration has whipped my practice into shape, defining the map of insight for me in a highly illustrated way.
And again, anyone else have any more data points or past experiences to share along these lines? Did you find it helpful or is it all jhanic masturbation to be avoided by a lowly pre-stream entrant? The only downside I've found to this approach is that it's pretty time-consuming.
Yers truly,
Gabriel

Hi Gabriel,

Yes, the interplay of jhana and nana is a fascinating and fruitful investigation. In fact, I have written a good deal about the topic. Have you seen this one:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Jhana+and+Ñana

Also:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Jhana+and+Ñana

Let me know what you think. There is a lot more; just click on the arrow next to "1st Gear" on the menu to the left of any page on this website. That will open up all the relevant articles.

Kenneth

Ah yes, that's a great article, and a definite help! I'd read it many months ago, but forgotten all the info you pack in there. Woops.
So here's a question: How does the 6th jhana relate to the Witness or 2nd Gear practice, if at all? It's just an intuition so far, but in the past few days, rising to 6th jhana before entering vipassana meditation has seemed to greatly impact my witnessing of the Witness. Is there a specific relationship there, or just a result of overall practice?
Thanks!
Gabriel

The relationship is that the focus of the 6th jhana on that observing observer IS what the witness is. If you pay attentionto that witnessthere at the back of the head, you will see that it is present in ALL the jhanas. it just becomes very obvious in the 6th jhana, as the witness takes centre stage.

Here are some of my comments from "Case Study: Alex:"

"There is one thing in particular I would like you to explore on the way there, however. Notice the strong sense of awareness in the 6th jhana (the jhana of infinite consciousness). Become aware of this awareness as an entity unto itself. In other words, find "the Witness" in the 6th jhana. "It knows itself." But it has no stake in the experience. It is just pure, localized knowing consciousness. Then, as you ride the jhanic arc back down through jhanas 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, become aware that the witness is present in each of them and that it looks the same from whatever state you happen to be in. Notice that this is the same apparent witness that is present in every moment of conventional experience, but that disappears in the non-dual experience of rigpa."

"I'm interested in hearing your feedback regarding this aspect of the exploration because I am experimenting with teaching students to attain stability as the witness by first identifying it in the 6th jhana where it is naturally most obvious. This only works for people who have facility with jhana, of course, but it is a way to tie together 1st and 2nd Gears within my system; samatha (1st Gear) thus becomes a direct support for and a bridge to 2nd Gear (dwelling as the witness), which is in turn a bridge to 3rd Gear (the non-dual) à la Ramana Maharshi and Jean Klein. This is an exciting prospect because I haven't heard of anyone connecting samatha and non-dual practices in this way; it is my contribution to the literature. Best of all, it seems to work for people who can access jhana but are not well-versed in self-enquiry; indeed, this is how I first became proficient in dwelling as the witness, an ability that had eluded me for many years until I found the witness within the jhanas."

Read the whole thing:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Case+Study%3A+Alex

If you check in the vimuttimagga, the Path of Freedom, on page 130 you will find the 10th kasina. It is the kasina of infinite conciousness, the 6th jhana ie the Witness. I believe that if you take the Witness as a kasina as is the 2nd gear practice, all the jhanas will arise in order up to your cutting edge and then back down. This is riding the jhanic arc Check out the these vids Kenneth and I did. We go up and down the jhana arc.

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/videos

Here is the Vimuttimagga link

www.scribd.com/doc/32131566/The-Path-of-Freedom-Vimuttimagga

Wonderful! Thanks to you both for pulling this stuff together for me- the help is very much appreciated.
After practicing just today, using the Witness as a kasina, I must say that it was pretty illuminating, and it left me with this question: Can one encounter what Ingram calls a Formation without achieving Path? This seems to be what happened to me in my morning sit today... Then again, the definition of "Formation" has seemed a little loose when I've read or heard it used in conversation.
In any case, thanks again, fellas.
G.

Hi Gabriel,

The following two links will be helpful to get an idea of what Kenneth and others here consider a formation. Suffice to say, we don't agree with Daniel's take on it. According to him, any yogi pre or post can witness formations (according to what he considers them to be) once in the 11th nana.

And in my opinion and experience, no, one doesn't need to be aware of what Daniel Ingram considers a formation. I never got what he was talking about, but it didn't stop me getting 1st path and beyond. The Witness is a great technique as one of the 3 gears to use to get 1st path. It can be used when appropriate and I think will take you through the nanas/jhanas quickly.



kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/36...here+a+difference%3F

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/41.../The+Sankhara+thread

Nikolai-
Gotcha. You just answered the next thousand questions I'd had prepared! Thanks a lot for your time on this, as the article links you've provided are extremely helpful.
Best wishes,
G.