Vipassana and First Path

Just wondering if anyone wants to say or ask anything about working with 1st Gear to get to 1st Path?

I'll start. I wonder how many hours of actual noting you need to do in a day on average to have a shot at Path? Do you literally have to reach a point where you're doing something effectively like noting virtually all of the time?

I've been adding extra noting in here and there, wherever it fits or where ever it may pop up on its own. Walking around in the city lends itself to noting. I don't do much driving, but yesterday behind the wheel all the negative driving mind states were flowing (anger, frustration, impatience). Sometimes a note will just pop up; usually it's a mind state, which is interesting because it is mind states I have the most difficulty noting and am most fully embedded in.

Eric

However much noting gets you up to the 11th nana , equanimity of formations, is how much is what is needed. And i think it depends from yogi to yogi. A momentum is needed of course. Retreats are great to really get the momentum going. But if that ain't possible, momentum can be maintained throughout the day while doing whatever. I think taking a resolution to attain 1st path will definitely help establish the ideal mindset which will help you do what needs to be done to achieve you most heartfelt desire to come out of misery. Try taking the resolution everyday in the morning to maintain momentm in your practice throughout the day. This will help you remember what needs to be done. Then take the resolution again to do what needs to be done when you sit again, and again and again. With this type of strong determination, you may find you will cut a path quickly up to the 11th nana quicker than not taking the resolution to get 1st path. It's all in the mindset.

This could well speed things up to get up to and hang out continuously in high equanimity. Then a little bit of patience, grace, and some continued noting will get the job done.

"However much noting gets you up to the 11th nana , equanimity of formations, is how much is what is needed. And i think it depends from yogi to yogi. A momentum is needed of course. Retreats are great to really get the momentum going. But if that ain't possible, momentum can be maintained throughout the day while doing whatever. I think taking a resolution to attain 1st path will definitely help establish the ideal mindset which will help you do what needs to be done to achieve you most heartfelt desire to come out of misery. Try taking the resolution everyday in the morning to maintain momentm in your practice throughout the day. This will help you remember what needs to be done. Then take the resolution again to do what needs to be done when you sit again, and again and again. With this type of strong determination, you may find you will cut a path quickly up to the 11th nana quicker than not taking the resolution to get 1st path. It's all in the mindset.

This could well speed things up to get up to and hang out continuously in high equanimity. Then a little bit of patience, grace, and some continued noting will get the job done. "

Thanks, Nikolai!

Nikolai, looks like you have related posts/articles. Looking forward for a chance to read everything when there's a work break. Thanks for all your help!

Nikolai, the spirit of your tips on resolving has been ringing in my ears at work today. For example, taking a lunch walk and noticing an unconscious aversion shutdown to some presumed medication side-effects, I resolved to open fully to the sensations, which ended up bringing awareness kind of touchingly into the body for most of the beautiful walk. Then on a work-errand walk in the building complex, I resolved to find my cutting edge of mindfulness for the experience of walking on the errand. These kinds of practices, reminders and encouragement do make a difference. Thanks, again.

A question, is it that you have to be allowing your practice to hang out in 11th nana for some time before 1st path can happen?

It seems to be like that. You hang out in the 11th long enough and then eventually you get the next few insight stages pop up just like all the other insight stages beforehand. It's just that when you get the 12th, 13th, 14th and 15th occur (all very quickly together in a number of mind moments), then you've gotten 1st path. And after the 16th review stage, the cycle begins again. I think Kenneth used the swallowing analogy once. Chew on some food long enough and the food is automatically swallowed. Your job is just to hang out (chew the food) making sure to dis-embed from boredom, wandering mind and anything else that crops up. Patience is key here. It's seems quite organic so you just gotta let it do it's thing.

Glad the tips helped. Keep resolving with wisdom!!!

Carrying that momentum did wonders in helping me keep things moving towards completing insight cycles. Certainly it seems to push and carry you towards the 11th nana effectively. I like the "chewing on some food" analogy. Mahasi Sayadaw talks about the insight of equanimity of formations needing to mature in order for the 12th through the 15th nanas to manifest. I definitely experienced some sort of "maturation" period within the 11th nana prior to attaining 1st and 3nd path (and prior to completing any of the numerous cycles post 2nd path). So keep on chewing and chewing and before you know it, POP! it happens on its own.

""Mahasi Sayadaw talks about the insight of equanimity of formations needing to mature in order for the 12th through the 15th nanas to manifest. I definitely experienced some sort of "maturation" period within the 11th nana prior to attaining 1st and 3nd path (and prior to completing any of the numerous cycles post 2nd path)." "

Could you say anything more about the "maturation" within the 11th nana, such as how you experienced it to be? Did you realize that it was vital at the time, or was it only clear on hindsight? Currently, in my own practice, I'm finding myself bumping against the glass ceiling of Equanimity- pleasant enough, sure, but also frustratingly persistent! So I'm interested to hear how others have experienced and dealt with this particular part of the pre-Path territory.
Thanks!

A heartfelt thanks from a beginner on starting and continuing this thread.
I'm experiencing a lot of pressure in my head, especially while sitting. It's not usually that unpleasant, but occasionally- today- It's been a very unpleasant headache. Is this a normal part of approaching stream entry? Any tips on how to minimize the discomfort?
Thanks Again!

"Could you say anything more about the "maturation" within the 11th nana, such as how you experienced it to be? Did you realize that it was vital at the time, or was it only clear on hindsight? Currently, in my own practice, I'm finding myself bumping against the glass ceiling of Equanimity- pleasant enough, sure, but also frustratingly persistent! So I'm interested to hear how others have experienced and dealt with this particular part of the pre-Path territory.
Thanks!"

Hi Gabriel,
The "maturation" the Mahasi Sayadaw and I talk about is related to the level of equanimity attained. How strong it is, how do you related to the arising phenomena (how well you are disembedding from it, how clearly the 3 characteristics are while noting all the rising phenomena while in equanimity). experimentally, I cannot think of another way to describe it other that it just feels right (sounds vague, but one can actually notice it). You will feel you are not forcing anything, that "frustatingly persistent" feeling in time becomes yet another thing to notice and break down into the 3 characteristics, ultimately leading you to disembed from it also. In my experience, there was nothing more than pure equanimity with everything that arose. Think of it also in terms of a bit of 3rd gear nature. There is nothing to be done, other than letting the equanimity be, surrender to the nature of the nana, accept that whatever happens happens. It will happen naturally.
I remember noticing that while paying enough attention, even the state of very high equanimity had all 3 characteristics and thus I developed a natural disembedment with the very state of equanimity (kind of developing equanimity about equanimity). So in your practice, every time you notice ANY type of frustration, notice it, and examine its 3 characteristics, disembed from it, and allow for equanimity about that particular formation arise.
Sounds like you are really close:-)

"A heartfelt thanks from a beginner on starting and continuing this thread.
I'm experiencing a lot of pressure in my head, especially while sitting. It's not usually that unpleasant, but occasionally- today- It's been a very unpleasant headache. Is this a normal part of approaching stream entry? Any tips on how to minimize the discomfort?
Thanks Again!"

Rev,
I remember feeling a lot of pressure in my head prior to attaining stream entry (and some more also later when approaching 2nd path). In my experience, it felt like there was a huge build up of energy wanting to get out, to go somewhere, to simply flow. It was quite unpleasant. From what I also remember reading from other yogis, this seems to be a lot more common than one may think. For a while I was a bit worried about this condition being permanent, but during the stage of equanimity of formations, I was able to disemebed from it, and gain equanimity about it. I do remember surrendering to its nature: "it is what it is, and somehow although unpleasant, I let it be.........and I'm ok with that". In my experience, surrendering to the nature of the nanas (not fighting the process of insight, rather allowing it to "do me") allow me to gain good insight into them. My suggestion is to surrender to the unpleasantness and disembed from it, remember the 3 characteristics of all phenomena (this is is no different!

Hope this helps!
JF

Thanks for posting this thread - great for all of us pre-path yogis out there. Also, great tips foolbutnotforlong - both in respect to the 'glass ceiling' of equanimity (been hitting that for about 3 months) and the head pressure. As for the latter, I've been having intense pressure since I recrossed the A&P this sumer, although it continually transforms itself in terms of intensity and quality (sometimes a molten steel ball, other times an expanding bubble of pressure).

I'm wondering about moments when things are 'moving along'. For instance, sometimes I'll suddenly have a mini-insight into being embedded by a particular thought or motive and then something I've read here or at DhO will pop into my head and totally make sense in a new way (at least in that moment, and perhaps slightly differently than the author intended).

For instance, this time it was desire (for path - surprise!), but your advice about head pressure and nanas - 'allowing it to '˜do me'' as you said - came into my mind as I realized I was struggling too much to make something happen. Then my mind started ruminating on that point and extended it to the notion of self in general - that instead of this self creating experiences, it was experience itself creating the self (make sense to others?). And like other times, when things 'click', suddenly I experienced a phase shift '” energy started moving around and vibrations were faster. I've felt this often, akin to tipping over the crest of a wave as Florian Weps put it.

Actually, I have a question about that kind of experience - it often feels like 'something' is going to happen. Of course, I do my best and note it to disembed (especially desire as it arises). Is this a pattern you or any post-path yogis experienced - the sudden quickening of vibrations in equanimity, perhaps accompanied by moving pressure in the head (often at the crown)? Anyway, thanks everyone for posting here!

"

Actually, I have a question about that kind of experience - it often feels like 'something' is going to happen. Of course, I do my best and note it to disembed (especially desire as it arises). Is this a pattern you or any post-path yogis experienced - the sudden quickening of vibrations in equanimity, perhaps accompanied by moving pressure in the head (often at the crown)? "

Yep! That was my experience pre-path, and post path. Keep doing what you are doing. Had a lot of near misses. Keep noting them.

Remember, "you" have nothing to do with getting it done. Let it mature and as you say, "let it do you".

"Yep! That was my experience pre-path, and post path. Keep doing what you are doing. Had a lot of near misses. Keep noting them.

Remember, "you" have nothing to do with getting it done. Let it mature and as you say, "let it do you". "

Thanks Nik - great to know.

Speaking of near misses, the other phenomenon I come across from time to time is hearing things. Haha, ok that's pretty vague, but what I mean is there seems to be a distinctive kind of inner sound that varies manifestly - sometimes a loud beep or ring, other times a snap (but with no blink out) - but underlying it seems to be is an abrupt, startling nature. The first time this happened to me, back in August, I thought I had landed path. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case. But, even aside from the power of scripting, those experiences are sometimes viscerally affecting in a physical sense (a rush of blood to face, tingles, etc.). Maybe it is just their startling nature.

On a related note, I also sometimes have really powerful swaying that will sometimes be rhythmic, but other times be COMPLETELY unexpected. As in, I'll sway for a moment back and forth and then suddenly, as if my body has some secret plan it's been hiding from me all along, my head will almost violently swoop down toward my knees. This is accompanied by tingles or various sorts of physical after effects. This usually happens in what I'd *guess* to be mid-equanimity - it's when those dastardly lulling vibes take over and it's hard not to space out.

The best way to describe the after effects is how Daniel Ingram puts it in MCTB - something along the lines of really chilling one out. Are theses just various manifestations of near misses? More curious than anything.

(cont'd below)

(cont'd)

One last question for you post-path yogis: In equanimity, is it best to just fix ones eyes/attention at or above the horizon and just let the eyes/attention go completely unfocused and note/notice from there? Or is it good to focus a little to pay attention to the endings of sensations as Kenneth has mentioned? That seems to be easier to do with a slight focus on the center.

I never paid a lot of attention to where the eyes were, but they did move around a bit... I do strongly recommend paying attention to the ending of things though. That really gives the mind that extra oomph it needs to apprehend nibbana. The way I think of it is that it is almost as if the mind starts to "follow" the sensations back into emptiness, which is nibbana.

However, that being said, I can't agree more with the message being sent here that "you" really don't have much to do with it. And of course, that can be a really frustrating thing, but also a liberating thing. You know something is on the verge of happening, it has been for some time, you want it so bad, but really the only thing you can do is practice, note and get out of the way.

Kenneth gave me a great analogy that I continue to use just before I experienced path the first time: working through equanimity toward path is like hiking along a trail. You can keep looking for the mile marker all you want and willing it to be around the next bend, but that doesn't bring it any closer. Just keep hiking and it will come up on its own at the right time. As long as you are practicing, the thing just happens on its own.

As far a pressure goes - it's a good sign. I had that too. Note it and let it go.

Love to hear that so many folks are getting close! It is so exciting!

" I also sometimes have really powerful swaying that will sometimes be rhythmic, but other times be COMPLETELY unexpected. As in, I'll sway for a moment back and forth and then suddenly, as if my body has some secret plan it's been hiding from me all along, my head will almost violently swoop down toward my knees. This is accompanied by tingles or various sorts of physical after effects. This usually happens in what I'd *guess* to be mid-equanimity - it's when those dastardly lulling vibes take over and it's hard not to space out.
"

Traditionally, these phenomena are called kriyas. If you go to YouTube and do a search for "Shinzen Young, kriyas," you'll find an interesting talk on this subject. One thing that I find fascinating about it is that, for some people, the kriyas develop into full-blown yoga asanas. The lack of control over the body can really scare people, which is why Shinzen Young gave the talk, I guess. He points out that kriyas are very clearly recorded in Christian mysticism texts long before the West had any real contact with Indian mystical traditions, which is kind of interesting. The swaying is very familiar. I just try to note it as "swaying, swaying." I think Mahasi Sayadaw's texts actually suggest this particular note, so it must be very common.

A question about Jhanas and stream entry:
Am I correct in thinking that one can reach 8th Jhana before 1st path/stream entry? Is it better to try to reach 8th, or stay at 4 and go for stream entry, or does it just unfold on its own? Or am I just really confused?

"A question about Jhanas and stream entry:
Am I correct in thinking that one can reach 8th Jhana before 1st path/stream entry? Is it better to try to reach 8th, or stay at 4 and go for stream entry, or does it just unfold on its own? Or am I just really confused?"

That is a very very good question. I think the answer is "compounded" (pun intended!

Speaking form my experience, and what I have heard from another yogis prior to and after stream entry. In terms of development, Only the jhanas/nanas that correspond to your developmental state can arise on their own (as the result of your development, they appear before you naturally). Because of this, all the arupa jhanas would not naturally arise to someone who have not attained stream entry yet. There is however a phenomenon of "compounding" jhanas (something I became extremely proficient at for a while, for better or worse). In my experience, my concentration level was able to "tune in" to the arupa jhanas and it would seem like I was experiencing tiny bits and pieces of a given jhana (kind of like looking up at a ceiling and seeing throuh little holes at what was going on up there) and mentally puttin them together, in this way "compounding" the jhana. I experienced something similar after reaching 2nd path with the Pure Land jhanas. I actually started a post called "Pure Land Jhanas, reserved to Anagamis and Arahats only?" I'll see if I can find it and post the link to it. I went into some detail about my experience with compounding Jhanas.
If you are compounding arupa jhanas prior to stream entry, pay attention to how they feel kind of fractured, and weak. Once you reach stream entry and they start to naturally arise on their own you will see the difference is night and day!!

My advice is to get to stream entry as fast as you can!!!! don't even worry about jhanas at this time, trust me, they will naturally appear (cont)

(cont) go to the 4th jhana/11 nana, stabilize it, go into deep equanimity and make it POP!!
get it done!!

JF

To be honest, I accessed 8 jhanas just hours BEFORE I got stream entry. I then just used that access to get up to 4th jhana to keep noting and disembeding from phenomena. We could argue they were compounded, but I think pre-pathers can still develop access to the first 8 jhanas. We could argue that the jhanas pre-path are mundane jhanas, and post-path are supra-mundane jhanas....but meh!. Whether they arise by themselves riding the jhanic arc? I'm not sure. I think I read a yogis' thread here who was accessing the arupa jhanas pre-path. Buddha learned them pre-buddhahood. Maybe he compounded them...hehe. It just takes getting 3rd path to access the pure abodes.

But stream entry is your goal, right? If I were you, and I had access to the 4th jhana, I would just hang out there and note my arse off, if you are pre-stream entry that is. Don't worry about the arupa jhanas. They will be accessed quite easily after stream entry. If you have that access now, they will be even easier. Hang out in 4th and you are technically in the 11th nana too if you pay attention to phenomena and dis-embed. After the 11th nana comes stream entry, if that is what you are after. Get up to 4th, note everything and pop! Go for it!

Nick

Thanks for the replies!
I am going for stream entry and am just anxious to get it ASAP. After rereading my question I think I'm just looking for that non-existent short cut becuase I want to get there so badly. It sounds like I'm going about it to the best of my current ability, more patience and determination and it'll be done.

"To be honest, I accessed 8 jhanas just hours BEFORE I got stream entry. I then just used that access to get up to 4th jhana to keep noting and disembeding from phenomena. We could argue they were compounded, but I think pre-pathers can still develop access to the first 8 jhanas. We could argue that the jhanas pre-path are mundane jhanas, and post-path are supra-mundane jhanas....but meh!. Whether they arise by themselves riding the jhanic arc? I'm not sure. I think I read a yogis' thread here who was accessing the arupa jhanas pre-path. Buddha learned them pre-buddhahood. Maybe he compounded them...hehe. It just takes getting 3rd path to access the pure abodes.

"

...and they are some yogis like Nick who accessed the jhanas very closely to their stream entry (which also happens to be common

I found the link of the post I started a while back on compounding jhanas (specifically PL jhanas):

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/42...and+arahants+only%3F

Again, like I and Nick said, they'll be accessed easily after stream entry, so go ahead and note note note and not while in the 4th jhana/11nana until you get enouh disembedding to make it pop!!

Remember that determination and momentum are great allies to help you get there, just make sure you don't fall into the trap of "expectations". Make a resolution about it: simply KNOW it's going to happen, and let it happen! (I bet you can feel it's so darn close! well, IT IS!!)

"A question about Jhanas and stream entry:
Am I correct in thinking that one can reach 8th Jhana before 1st path/stream entry? Is it better to try to reach 8th, or stay at 4 and go for stream entry, or does it just unfold on its own? Or am I just really confused?
- RevElev"

Hi RevElev,

The less you try, the more you will get This is a lesson that took me a while to learn.

I got spontaneous access to the Arupa Jhanas way before the Stream Entry. With a bit of practise I was able to call them at will, but I have never found any use for them. Actually cultivating those jhanas before the path was just a sidetrack and a dead end. Thinking back, the most useful teachings for me were:

'It's a little bit like chewing and swallowing; when you put food into your mouth, you begin to chew. At some point, when sufficient chewing has taken place, you swallow. It's an involuntary reflex. You don't have to obsess about whether swallowing will occur or try to control the process.'
- Kenneth Folk

and

'Just do your practise and all is coming'
- Pattabhi Jois

Metta,
Antero.