Clarification about nanas

Hi all.

I'm wanting to understand the nana model a bit better, and am wondering if some folks might help me with clarifications. I'm finding it hard to totally get my head around.

The general argument seems to be that practitioners cycle over fairly long periods of time through the nanas--weeks, months, and years--except perhaps towards 3rd path when things might speed up. Also, I think I get the connection between the jhanas and nanas in meditation--that the two are linked in a very strong way (or are two ways of talking about the same thing).

So, here is the question, perhaps with other confusions buried in it: How can both be true? How can cycles last weeks and yet also take place during a short (one-hour) meditation.

If I have the model right--according to the 20 strata model--it seems that once a person has reached 1st path, he or she will begin meditation at the the 4th nana/2nd jhana, and reliably rise to the 11th nana/4th jhana. Correct? At 2nd path, the same beginning and then ending again with 11 nana and 8th jhana. 3rd, same beginning and ending somewhere in jhana 9-13.

So every meditation a post-path person cycles at least once. So how can there be this short-term cycle, and then a cycle that happens outside of meditation that takes place over weeks or months or years? It seems like you'd need two different physio-energetic models to account for this--one that happens quickly and one that happens slowly.

Does this make sense? Feel free to clarify whatever I've gotten wrong here.

Mark

I kinda wondered about this myself, but in the pre-first path context, it was always clear to me that the "stage" is the baseline level you reach in practice, even though you move through the sequence to get there. This is less easy to figure post-1st path.

Tell me if this guess is off-base: just as in the classic Theravada model, each Path represents the shedding of certain kinds of ignorance or "fetters", each "nana" can itself have depth and qualities of ignorance- so even if, post-path, you can access the nanas with their limits of insight as they stood at the previous Path, you can progress upward through a new sequence of nanas at a new depth compared to the previous path's equivalent.

Disclaimer: that is *totally* a guess. Does that hold water?

FRACTALS!!!! bit.ly/9bOCZw


And 2nd path for me had cycles varying from a day to a couple per minute to a couple of weeks max. Cycles within cycles within cycles. I gave up thinking about it. It did my head in. I don't cycle much now these days anyway.


Concerning specific nanas corresponding to the jhanas: Yeh, if you wanted to get absorbed in the 11th nana for example instead of practice vipassana, a jhana of the absorbtion variety will result...ie 4th jhana.

Same for the other corresponding nanas. Get into a jhana and start noting within it and you are now practicing in it's corresponding nana. That is how I look at it.

As far as I'm concerned, in my own experience, the nanas where connected to the rising energy in the body(kundalini?) which set off all sorts of mischief at the chakras up and down the body (dukkha nanas) then eventually get to the 11th nana (third eye) and high equanimtiy (crown) and then pop, a frution through either the crown or the thrid eye depending on the door. Then start again at the base chakra with bubbly vibes 2nd jhana/AP and on up again. I think the cycling was just the energy cutting a path out up and down the body so that the energy could flow without hinderance (4th path). But it seems that the energy still sets off all sorts of chaos still (dukkha nanas) as it passes cetain chakras...mainly, the solar plexus, chest and throat. That is what I think. Could be completely wrong. But my experience is kind of like this.

Rob, at each path the experience of the nanas can be different. They get more intense and deep as you progress through. The insights get more, if it can be said this way "personal". After 4th path they are just kinda boring since you've seen them so many freaking times.

The model that most makes sense for me, and I found this around 2nd path was to picture it as a fractal (Daniel goes into depth about this). What I usually experience when I'm in cycle mode is there is an overarching "feel" that I think of as the base nana, and that last for a period of months or weeks. So if I'm in disgust, everything, even experiences of high equanimity are colored by that. Then there are sub-nanas that are layered on top of that which are shorter in duration. Then, during a sit it can look like there are sub-sub-nanas which go even faster. Theoretically, they go on forever in both directions. Even the "base" nana has one under it, I'm but it's probably been going on for years.

I also find that if I'm doing a ton of vipassana, the cycles go faster. That might be a 4th path feature though since the strata of mind have all been penetrated. I'm beginning to think that the endless nana cycling is a side effect of vipassana that can continue after it's usefulness is over (completing 4th). It's as if the self-contraction is being deconstructed over and over and over without any purpose since it has been seen through.

I would advise people to not get overly caught up in cycle theory. It's fun to look at but it can be a distraction. Better to note the desire to understand where you are on the path.

OK, noted Like the joke says, "It's turtles all the way down", right?

Thanks all.

Owen, your idea of a basa nana and sub nanas sound experientially right to me. Obviously all this stuff is an abstraction, but I can see how I might have occasion in the future to try and explain cycles to people and want to be at least be able to hang with the basic conversation.

I don't know if endless cycling is useless after 4th. I'm new to that game, but I think cycling reveals emotionally relevant content along the way that can always be addressed with greater insight (psychological and spiritual) and compassion. It seems to be for me. I get that consistent PCE mode might stop cycling for those who walk that road, but to the extent cycling continues I think things can be learned from it that are useful on a relative level. Just my opinion and it might not apply to anyone elses' practice.

Yours,
Mark

PS Checking into fractals. I'll have to read around more and see with it. Interesting, but not totally an "aha!"
Yours,
Mark

"How can cycles last weeks and yet also take place during a short (one-hour) meditation."-mdaf30

Think of an army marching up a hill. The main body of the force takes time to move up. Meanwhile, advance scouts race ahead and then back down to the main force. All the while, there is a supply train going back and forth between the main body of the army and the supply camp at the foot of the hill.

The cutting edge of your practice will always influence your overall mood all day long. But the cutting edge of your practice is wherever the main body of your army is bivouacked, not the places your advance scouts are able to quickly glimpse before scurrying back downhill to safety. This is why a yogi can be said to be "in" the 10 nana, for example, for months even though he is up and down through all the preceding 9 nanas in each sitting and even though his advance scouts may be sniffing out the 11th nana from time to time. Once you get to a post-path review stage, you are "in" the review phase, which means you have easy access to all the nanas and cycle around through them. Review, however, does not last long. The mind soon tires of it and begins a new insight cycle, during which the army has to march up the hill all over again.

Thanks Kenneth--very clear explanation and a very useful analogy!

Yours,
Mark

Kenneth's analogy has cleared something up for me that I've been wondering about for a while. That is: If a person can learn to move quickly through the jhanas by willing them, why would one let them unfold naturally? Why not just skip them and go up the ladder? (I mean after 1st, 2nd, or 3rd paths when one can climb the ladder some distance through intention).

I think the thing is that when you jhana hop or move quickly through intention setting, only a certain amount of the body's energies (a certain number of your advanced forces) can come with you. The main army is more static. You can go to later jhanas fast, but the quality and depth of the jhana is reduced; the mass of energies underneath doesn't get shifted as dramatically. Ergo, the physiological results are probably not as lasting or marked. If you let the jhanas unfold naturally, a lot more gets shifted and the intensity of the jhanas is often much more profound.

So the difference between go up to 13 in a few minutes through intention setting (I can do this now) and the difference between letting it unfold over 35- 40 minutes (which is about what it takes, I think, if I'm in 1st gear and not paying attention to jhanas) is an order of magnitude in the intensity of the states. PL jhanas in particular can be pretty mild or quite profound. I don't know if the difference is that great in earlier jhanas.

This clears a lot up for me, too. I am in a phase of trying to "jhana jump" in the 1-to-4 zone, and I feel like I am experiencing attenuated versions of jhana signs (sometimes *so* attenuated that I think I might be fooling myself), rather than a full-blown jhana (this can happen even with only middling concentration, with thoughts and sensory experience continuing to babble noisily in the foreground). A very different quality from sitting down and inhabiting them, which is something I'd like to improve while I have this "review" access.

Hi Rob.

Yes. When I was trying to learn the jhanas initially--I had access to many before I could name them, because I had never heard them named--I would spend at least a few minutes in each before setting the intention to shift. It was a bit hard not to script, but on the other hand, the scripts given out here are very accurate. I thought I was fooling myself for a while, but then I realized, "No, actually, 3rd jhana actually feels like Ken, Nick, etc. describe it." So do all the others. After doing it over and over it gives one confidence.

I think the few minutes in each was energetically helpful--it wasn't just review, it pushed things along.

Eventually, after a few weeks, I had the feeling to leave the practice as a main course and instead just sit and not pay attention to the jhanas at all (I know they arise, but a lot more goes on to pay attention to, so it isn't necessary to notice I found). This felt more powerful. I still occasionally climb the jhanas intentionally ("Okay, let's go to 2, 3, etc.) because it feels right in the moment. But now it's just more of a side dish.

Yours,
Mark