4th Pathers Unite!

Thanks for the clarification Kenneth.

Now the question of all questions - does this model leave room for further development? That is, is there further suffering that can be reduced after what you are calling the 7th stage? The physical component of the emotions that you say persists - is that what is called the 'somatic charge' (what the AF people are claiming is gone)?

"The physical component of the emotions that you say persists - is that what is called the 'somatic charge' (what the AF people are claiming is gone)?" -Yadid

No, the somatic charge associated with emotions is what goes away at the 6th stage. The best way to understand this is with a Buddhist model. The emotions never existed in the first place, any more than the ego did. So when you stop experiencing them, you haven't lost anything except a mis-conception. The body and mind continue to operate, but without the "ignorance" that causes one to mistake body sensations and mental impressions for emotions and self.

"Now the question of all questions - does this model leave room for further development?" -Yadid

I believe that any good model must leave room for further development. We can never assume that what we see now is all there is to see.

"That is, is there further suffering that can be reduced after what you are calling the 7th stage?" -Yadid

Well, this is the experiment we are running, after all. We shall see. But at this point, I don't anticipate getting rid of physical sensations, nor do I consider it necessary or desirable. As far as I know, physical sensations only disappear at death. Think of this process of enlightenment not as a program of getting rid of experience, but rather one of seeing ever more deeply that it was only your misconceptions that were causing you to suffer.

Thanks for the clarification Kenneth.

Quoting Kenneth: "There are two distinct attainments that come after 4th Path as we define it in this community. One is the transformation of the emotions and the other is the end of self referencing. I assert this from my own very recent experience, so I have not yet amended the maps published here to include this information. But I am already teaching it to my advanced students."

K,

Recommend that you update the map(s) you endorse as soon as possible. Doing so will probably circumvent confusion on the part of those who follow your teaching.

M

"Everyone: On a similar note, it was not Mahasi Sayadaw who came up with the technical model of the 4 Paths. He seems to have gotten it from the Visuddhimaga among other sources within the Pali canon. I request that in differentiating the two 4 Path models, we adopt the convention of referring to them as the technical model and the ten fetters model respectively, since labels like the "Mahasi model" and the "Pali canon model" are ambiguous and/or inaccurate. Thanks in advance for helping to clarify an inherently confusing system of terminology!"

While we're adding technical notes, the Vism. is a non-canonical compendium and summary of ancient commentaries to the Pali Tipitaka which was written about a thousand years after the Canon was closed at the second council of the Sangha in the second century. The Canon itself contains only the Sutta collections (the discourses of the Buddha and other some by other members of the Sangha and various stories about them, the Vinaya works (the monastic rules), a handful of smaller texts (such as the Dhammapada) and the Abhidhamma (a collection of texts that systematize the teachings in the other works). In addition to the Canonical literature itself there are two or three layers of non-canonical commentaries on the Pali Tipitaka texts which explicate various details, expand on difficult passages and add historical details. The Vimuttimagga is a meditation manual also written about a thousand years after the closing of the cannon. The Canon was maintained only by memorization and recitation for four centuries until famine which nearly wiped out the Sangha in the first century BC necessitated transferring the text to written form on Bannana leafs. It was still largely memorized and recited after that time but various written collections subsequently persisted. The leafs decay rapidly and had to be reproduced regularly. The oldest such written manuscripts still extant today are from the 11th Century.

The closest thing to maps and models in the Pali Canon would be the matrix presented in the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma texts would be the primary source materials apart from the sutta texts and vinaya works for deriving official Dhamma theory that Burmese monastic scholars past and present would draw upon when writing their own commentaries and meditation manuals. As far as I know the Burmese give more credence to the older commentarial collections than most scholar monks elsewhere but even so I rarely see them quote from those materials, Bhikkhu Bodhi is probably the translator monk who has presented more material in english translation drawn from the Tipitaka commentaries in the last couple centuries than anyone else whose works I have studied. Until the Pali Tipitaka began to be translated into english, german and french, etc. in recent centuries, there was a long period, 1000 to 1500 years, of almost no further production of any new Theravada literature of any kind anywhere.

Thanks for the clarification, Nathan. My mistake. The commentaries are, as you say, not considered part of the canon. From the Wikipedia entry "Pali Canon:"

"The traditional Theravādin (Mahavihārin) interpretation of the Pali Canon is given in a series of commentaries covering nearly the whole Canon, compiled by Buddhaghosa (fl. 4th'“5th century CE) and later monks, mainly on the basis of earlier materials now lost. Subcommentaries have been written afterward, commenting further on the Canon and its commentaries. The traditional Theravādin interpretation is summarized in Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga."

"An official view is given by a spokesman for the Buddha Sasana Council of Burma:[11] the Canon contains everything needed to show the path to nirvāna; the commentaries and subcommentaries sometimes include much speculative matter, but are faithful to its teachings and often give very illuminating illustrations. In Sri Lanka and Thailand, "official" Buddhism has in large part adopted the interpretations of Western scholars."

"Thanks for the clarification, Nathan. My mistake. The commentaries are, as you say, not considered part of the canon. "

Hey, no biggie. The Pali TIpitaka, etc. and Theravada history just happens to be a hobby of mine so I thought I would toss a few notes in here. If you go back to the core of the Tipitaka, the Sutta discourses and the Vinaya texts, which contain a ton of dhamma talks from the big guy hissef, it doesn't take long to tell he was not much into theories or maps or models. He was much more of a pragmatic kind of teacher. He would frequently say stuff like, 'It's like this...not otherwise, see for yourself'. or 'To accomplish such and such, do a, b, c and d, rinse and repeat.' or 'Dumb question, completely irrelevant, so I'm not answering it.' He could be a lot like you Kenneth, in some ways actually... : )