Testimonies of the A&P- New Article for Hamilton Project

What a cool thread!

wow johnawhite, that's quite a story. care to share more?

Excellent!

I am a man of my word so your name has been added to the metta list, John. Thank so much

Keep em coming yogis. Those who have been lurking and reading here for ages, this is your chance to start contributing. If our practice is just for our own benefit, we lose, as there isn';t anyone at home to benefit. Post your experiences of the A and P for the benefit of other Dark Night yogis out there, or for others who haven't even got there yet and I'll add them to the article which has been posted already at The Hamilton Project.

WOOOOOOT!

would be happy to Yadid, thanks for inquiring. Actually it would be cool if somebody could help me figure out how/if my experiences at osho's place fit into the theravadin maps. I still am not at all sure where I am, but I do seem to be in some kind of review mode, where lots of things from my past regarding meditation are becoming clear. Will definitely do this on another thread though.

and thanks Nikolai! will be interesting to see if I can feel the metta

Don't believe I've crossed the A & P yet. But I did have a funny happenstance today. I meditated for a good couple of hours and then listened to Episodes 4,5,6 of the Hamilton Project podcast. At one point someone said that it was like being at the apex of a roller-coaster climb getting ready to plunge. In my meditation session just previous I had a blip of a vision/hallucination of being at that very spot on a roller coaster ride. One difference, tho. I was riding the coaster carrying a shot gun! ;^) Just occurred to me that if that was a little precog then maybe the shotgun represents my being armed with the knowledge and information from the podcasts. Thank you all so very much.

I think I crossed the A&P in the late 2009. There was this growing ball of tension in the third eye area and meditation started to suck. No more blissful and subtle sensation, only pain.
One day I focused on that tension and the ball just exploded, releasing a warm bliss over the whole body. A mindblowing phisical joy. Only recently I've read a post by Nikolai describing the same experience. And then one night there was this rushing energy in the body, just like being in a washing machine, I was scared to death... (thanks to mdaf30, too, for the expression "A&P/Kundalini Awakening" found in a post, I think it explains a lot of things...).
Other phenomena were hearing voices during meditation, a persistent eardrum buzz, 'seeing sounds' (an inner visual sensation in response to a sound coming from outside), an increase in synchronicities that was driving me mad, white lights, lucid dreaming, impermanence in the visual field. The whole thing melted with the bhanga process and at times it was very freaky. The best thing was a state where everything (sights, sounds, thoughts, gestures) was seen as arising and passing away in front of a detached happy watcher (sort of a Witness state), seeming a super-way of being-alive. It gave me the well known confidence, enthusiasm, devotion to the practice described by Mahasi Sayadaw. This state, and the general free-flow of sensations, came well before in my practice, I think the real A&P crossing was the Kundalini stuff.
Thanks Nikolai for the thread and your urge to help others to awake (I'm still pre-1st Path, and have not sorted out all those experiences).
[Edited for clarification]

Here's a couple. They're kinda classic A&Ps, I think. (One thing I'm curious about is if there is any solid stand alone criteria for A&P, or does diagnosing have to have the context, e.g. 3 characteristics before and dark night after, to really diagnose???)

One was on a night when I wasn't quite tired... I spent the late evening meditating into A&P territory and continued it during lucid dreams and would even wake up and it would continue... It was all pretty much sparkling, crackling electricity going through my body -- saw my body as vibrating streaks of light, which would hit each other and fracture into more streaks of light. There was a general upward flow over all and I was throwing sparks out everywhere like a fountain. My experience was similar to Ron's -- feeling divided like I had a spiritual self and a normal self, feeling like what happened was right but wouldn't be understood by others.

cont.

I've only had one A&P that also had what Daniel described as an A&P "event". It happened on retreat. I was going up and down the arc once or twice a day. The high point of the arc was a energetic and loving bliss stage, accompanied by golden light. On about the 10th day, I felt really done with exploring that territory any more and gave up completely. This time there was a time and space gap and then a sense of not knowing where I was. Then I was sorta looking up into the night sky at a white star, but then it seemed like it was like a star was connected to my brain by a beam of light that had entered/exited through a crack in my skull. A big bliss wave followed with lots of golden light and I felt like I was going to disappear into it, but then everything seemed normal in the meditation hall. When I got up for walking meditation, for about a half hour, I felt like I was on autopilot, my body was being moved appropriately, exactly within the moment. No sense of will. Oh, so this is no self, I thought.

Well, obviously it seemed like stream entry to me, but no other fruitions occured. It was such an energetic experience that I felt very weak and wounded and didn't meditate for months afterwards.

Those are some classic examples. As I mentioned earlier, what really interests me is the degree to which there are qualitative distinction between meditation experiences and life experiences -- A&P vs. other energetic experiences, dukka nana vs. other negative states -- or if there is no hard line and it is one of "degree" rather than "type/kind".

I'll share what may have been my first A&P, it was spontaneous and occurred in 2003, while I was experimenting with dmt.

I was laying down, and my vision of my surroundings became kaleidoscopic and colorful. The ringing in my ears became predominant, increased in intensity and pitch, like a camera flash charging, then there was a giant flash , or release of energy. I was "one with everything" There was no more form, then I was like a drop of awareness in an infinite sea of awareness. I felt waves of blissful, loving, kind energy embracing and coursing through my "awareness" At some point on the way down, I was inundated by insights into the interconnectedness of everything. The period after this was a very dark period for me, the possibility that I had died and was thrown back into some hell realm occurred for me more than once. I felt trapped for eternity, with no avoiding the fear and misery, paranoia, etc that came over me. Despite the difficult period afterward this was a life changing "unitive" experience for me, that's motivated me to keep seeking ever since.

I may be in A&P territory presently as well, however with much milder effects. It seems I'm becoming intimately familiar with this strobing in every sitting. =] I hope someone can benefit from me sharing my experience. I know I've found a great deal of helpful information here, thanks to everyone for sharing!

justin

Let's hope that I can remember this accurately. Warning: it's long-winded. 3 posts, to be exact.

This takes place in April. I had found MCTB about 10 months earlier, and was familiar with the absolute basics of vipassana and concentration. I had encountered the beginning of A&P territory several times before, but never crossed The A&P Event. The context was an accidental "heroic dose" of DMT, a psychedelic hallucinogen whose strength at high doses could best be described as "totally unnecessary." Another description would be "load universe into cannon, aim at brain, fire." I had not intended to do such an intense dose of it -- I was aiming for standard hyperspace, but due to a measurement error I ended up going completely beyond standard hyperspace to a level of psychedelic experience that is rarely talked about, and totally impossible to explain. To top it off, I entered the trip with a firm resolution to remain equanimous and mindful of every sense impression that presented itself, and I had been practicing mindfulness and equanimity and concentration a whole lot recently.

All I can really say about beyond-hyperspace is that at after a few aeons of it (4-5 minutes of clock time), as I started to come down and re-enter normal hyperspace, I decided to start being mindful and equanimous toward everything. At this point, there was still zero connection to the physical body. As far as I knew, I was made completely of mind, and easily might have never really had a body. Memories of real life surfaced -- Adam talking to some kind of "teacher" of "singing," whatever the hell "teaching" and "singing" are... Adam in a "classroom" listening to meaningless things that have nothing to do with enlightenment... Adam in a "chemistry lab class" barely "passing" by doing the minimum amount of work possible...

All those memories seemed totally imaginary, and it made more sense to think that I had just dreamed or confabulated them. Those memories told of a form of existence that seemed totally foreign, even impossible. Surely I was delusional if I thought any of those things had really happened. I must have just cracked under the pressure of this sometimes harsh existence and withdrawn into some fantasy world for about 20 years, with some imaginary "Adam" as the protagonist.

So, the only REASONABLE thing to do at that point was to start being very mindful and equanimous, to become enlightened as soon as possible and find an end to suffering. So I started doing what I would now call blended 1st gear practice: vipassana awareness of sensations, with enough jhanic concentration to take the edge off the dukkha. (This was the Cause and Effect stage.)

The Three Characteristics stage came next. There was still no body at this point, and still only one sense door through which all the mind's content arose. Nonetheless, the classic "three characteristics" feeling was obvious and present. I remembered having encountered it before, and that I was supposed to just stay mindful and focused.

Next, I noticed the input from the sense door was made up of discrete moments. Somehow, this realization was very blissful and energizing. I wondered if I had started noticing planck times arising and passing by one by one. (A&P event.) After a little while, it became pretty hard to see the discrete moments arising -- all I could see was their passing away. This felt good, and significantly more tranquil. (Dissolution.)

Around this point, hyperspace started to come to an end. The senses gradually differentiated, and my concentration became shot to hell. I momentarily forgot about being mindful and trying to become enlightened. A lot of harshly negative emotional content came up. I became terrified that people would find out what I had done. I didn't even know what I had done, but I was certain that it had to stay secret or else everyone would hate me for it. (Fear.)

Now, 8 minutes after beginning the trip, I opened my eyes and saw my friend's face. He had a half-impressed, half-concerned look -- the average trip to hyperspace only lasts 3-5 minutes. I sat up and said something like "Wow." His response was garbled, and I could only pick out "Womp womp womp still tripping. Womp womp womp lie back down?" I didn't know what "lie back down" meant, but it seemed like a very good idea. so I muttered "Yeah, lie back down" and the body's autopilot did the movement for me. I closed my eyes and returned to the fading vestiges of hyperspace.

I'll end the story there. Plenty of things happened after that, including a descent back down the insight stages to A&P. But this story has gone on long enough, and now you know what it's like to traverse the 2nd through 6th stages on DMT.

EDIT: well, now I feel silly. Another DMT story popped up while I was typing mine up. Congratulations Justin on your progress in approaching the A&P event on the cushion! As you can imagine, it's much more useful to hit the A&P using meditation, because only meditation can carry you to Equanimity and beyond. Do you have a practice journal?

I so want to be included in the boom boom metta generating sessions!
Don't mean to intrude in this thread, but I was just wondering: is it possible to have crossed the A&P without remembering it?
I remember having read that somewhere.

I wonder if there's a silent majority out there who might not post on this thread because the A&P might not have been a cut-and-dried experience for them.

For me, I am pretty sure that I've spent at least a few years as a kind of "chronic yogi" who's veered into the "Corruptions of Insight", without having the context to know that that's what I was doing.

I've often had a couple of days' runs of practice, with deep, elated sessions with shaking and lights, a strong desire to tell everyone how great meditation was, etc. Some were big, and some were small, and I pretty much forgot about most of them because all of those effects faded shortly after.

Reading Daniel Ingram's book blew my mind, because it was frankly the first time I realized that failing to hold on to a consistently-mounting experience of bliss was NOT a sign that my practice was lazy and useless and that I really just should start all over again with someone else's techniques. Not long after that, with Kenneth's and this community's guidance, I passed through it with more clarity and self-understanding, although everything I experienced was similar to experiences I'd had before, only more intense.

The one new feeling on my last pre-SE A&P was an almost fearful awe in realizing that the teachings were true. For a few minutes I was tempted to stop practicing altogether, when I faced the implications of that fact.

"EDIT: well, now I feel silly. Another DMT story popped up while I was typing mine up. Congratulations Justin on your progress in approaching the A&P event on the cushion! As you can imagine, it's much more useful to hit the A&P using meditation, because only meditation can carry you to Equanimity and beyond. Do you have a practice journal? "

A practice journal is something I plan to implement, I may share if these seem like they may be of benefit. Interesting synchronicity here, with the DMT related A&P's. There are numerous parallels with the details of my own story, actually. A couple things I left out; the "timelessness" or the impression of having gone beyond time. Also, the complete dissolution of any sense of identity, a name, memories of a personal history, etc.. gone. There was awareness / mind .. aware of it's own sentience. Perhaps this is what is referred to as "the witness".

I agree.. while psychedelics seem to have their place in precipitating openings in some individuals, they often hinder the kind of clarity and clear recollection that is necessary to recognize the deepest and most profound insights that arise from these stages. Meditation is clearly the ideal vehicle in this regard, for fueling continued progress. Thank you for sharing your experience, and your encouragement, JAdamG!

justin

( edit: typo )

Interesting. I used to repeat words in a similar method to Florian as a kid (around 6-7 or so). I found it enticing to notice that when repeated, after a while a word looses its meaning and becomes something else. I never pushed it though far enough at that time, but I remember doing this as well.

My A&P occured in March 2009. I was doing daily meditations (for 1-2 months) under guidance from Kenneth and I went on this daily sesshin with a local Zen group (the only time I sat at that place). Strangely enough, last minute, a close friend's dad passed away and his funeral was the morning of the sesshin. Kenneth advised me to go to the funeral and afterwards the sesshin. Well I did, and at some point during the day I experienced very pleasant body release, combined with lights (although not the brightest I have seen), energy making its way up the body towards the brow and the crown of head. For a few days afterwards I was flying high. Sits were cake, concentration was excellent, and the energy releases during sitting meditation were even more powerful and pleasant. This stuff seemed to be for real.

A few weeks ago, I experienced my first A&P. It's hazy how it started. About 40 minutes into noting I started liking everything I noted, even the unpleasant stuff. I was standing at the time, and I started saying 'I like the tightness, I like the itching, etc.'. I liked it all. I felt definitely not myself, just awareness, but I could notice everything in my experience very clearly, I noticed more sensations than usual, faster, and in much more detail. There were so many body sensations moving throughout my torso. Lots of often familiar sensations, but most seeming to move upward, at least in my torso. Elsewhere it was waves of good sensation, starting from some familiar point. They were all very nice, though not spectacular individually, but taken all together, after a few minutes, definitely bliss. Notably absent was my usual self-consciousness, fear and shrinking away from anything new and intense. Some of the things I always call unpleasant were so funny! Especially funny was all the dark, dramatic baggage attached to various objects. The intensity and focus faded after 30 minutes to an hour, with some residual bliss and happiness for a few hours. Nothing of that intensity has happened since. I feel much the same as before, though with increased conviction, and I'm a little more easy-going about things, including my practice. It's getting more difficult to focus during noting, but often I get to a place where it seems like all sensations have a slight pleasant component, but nothing as spectacular as the A&P event. Waiting for the Dark Night. I'm very glad to have Kenneth's coaching and all of you sharing on this forum for guidance and support through this territory. Knowing what to do and what to expect makes all the difference.