from nana to jhana ?

After looking at the 20 levels of mind map on this site, it seems to suggest that knowledge of all the nanas are required
before you can enter the first four jhanas, have i got this right or am imissing something ?

Hello there-
I'll take a crack at your question. Someone with more experience than me could probably answer in greater detail, but the very simple answer is: You can enter the four Material Jhanas before knowing all 20 levels of mind. The jhanas correspond directly with the nanas, concentration and insight being two different ways of viewing the same territory. So, for example, when you are investigating the fifth nana during insight practice, you are experiencing the 3rd jhana, just from a different angle, so to speak.
I can't conjecture too much on this, but it does seem that some people have the capacity to develop jhana to a relatively high degree before doing any proper Vipassana at all. This was my own experience (simply didn't know any better!), and I spent a good nine months developing concentration alone- How I wish I could have spent all that time doing insight! Que cera.
It should be said that some teachers apparently do require students to master the first four jhanas before even beginning Insight. Around here at KFD, however, the emphasis is more often on developing Insight first, as the jhanic absorptions are reputed to be far easier to access and simply more useful after first path (I haven't experienced this myself, but have heard this fact repeated many times by more advanced practitioners). The advantage of this latter approach is that one may begin pragmatic practice without the disillusionment of "failing" at concentration exercises, which isn't of utmost importance to a beginning yogi, anyway.
Hope this useful to you, and many best wishes to you in your practice,
Gabriel

Hi Gabriel,
thanks for your helpful reply, really appreciated. I suppose what i was wondering was, is it possible to develop the jhanas so that you can cycle
through them at will, summon them up in a matter of seconds, and still not be a stream enterer ?

Hi Stephencoe,
I can't speak for any other yogis here but I can say, if I remember correctly, that I attained to the first four jhanas before stream entry, got stream entry and then began accessing the immaterial jhanas after that. I attained to the last of the four immaterial jhanas after second path, (I got second path quite quickly), and only accessed the pure land jhanas after third path. Pure land one and two along with N.S appear to be characteristics of third path and appear to not be available to those that are pre-third. I stopped paying attention to jhanas after pure land one and two and N.S just showed up by itself without any actual desire on my part to attain it. It appears according to Mastering the Core Teachings by D. Ingram that, as with what Gabriel has said, you can cultivate the first four without beginning insight practice. Hope this helps.
Paul

Thanks Paul, thanks very interesting. When you got stream entry, was there an obvious change or was it quite suttle?
What were the major signposts ? Sorry to ask so many questions but joining this site has been a real oppertunity for
me to talk about all this stuff!!

" Thanks Paul, thanks very interesting. When you got stream entry, was there an obvious change or was it quite suttle?
What were the major signposts ? Sorry to ask so many questions but joining this site has been a real oppertunity for
me to talk about all this stuff!!"

This question comes up a quite frequently.

The answer does not seem to be as straight forward as a pre-Stream-entere would like it to be, however, the concesus is that once Stream-Entry is attained, all the specifics are not really that important as it is as a whole. Many yogis think they've "got it" when in fact they haven't, and many others don't think they did, but they have. This is due to the fact that there does not seem to be a really significant shift right after one attains to Stream-Entry (again, this is in general, as they are many yogis that have noticed a more than subtle shift than others). Fruitions can be very subtle, to the point of one not really noticing them, and they can happen during a sitting or during one's every day life. The signs of Stream-Entry become more noticeable as time goes by though. The relation with phenomena starts to seem different than before, some things don't seem to "stick" as they used to (although most still do). Concentrations ramps up considerably afterwards, and experiencing jhanas becomes a lot easier as well. Many yogis can access the rupa jhanas with great ease, and even experience some of the arupa jhanas. Like Paul, many of us attained to 2nd path quite quickly after attaining 1st path, so there is no need to get too caught up with what goes on during 1st path.

...and don't apologize for asking questions. That's how we keep our community here in KFDh alive!

with metta,

Jorge Freddy

Hi Stephencoe,
First path for me was a very subtle and fleeting event but something impossible to miss, a bit of a paradox really. What tends to accompany first and second path is a moment where you spontaneously smile or break out into laughter. One guy I read of had a laughing fit for days!! Like Jorge said, the depth of the experience or what follows the event becomes more and more apparent as time and practice continues. For me, first was marked by a sensation of a broadening of consciousness, second deepened it and third became more three dimensional in scope. Hard to convey really. Insight into how personality or experience is constructed and how it works continued to deepen also, allowing greater capacity for compassion but also, various psycho-emotional habits or aspects of self burned off by themselves. Also, I attained first, second, third and fourth while sitting, not out and about doing daily stuff like it happens for some. Hope this helps.
Paul