Fruition Practice, Mastering Stages of Insight, and Jhanas

Hello! This is one of my first posts here, so I will share a little relevant history first, to give some context. I have a few questions, from what I've read so far I'm sure there are many adept practitioners present here who can provide insightful direction. =]

My first "opening" or A&P event occured in 2003, it was catalyzed by a psychedelic I was experimenting with at the time. I was deeply affected by this event and was motivated from that point on to make sense of this revelation and integrate it into my worldview. This took me on a search through the literature many different traditions, over several years. The systems that seemed to have the most lucid and precise descriptions were buddhist, & yogic. These seemed to have a systematic, scientific approach.

I immediately felt that dzogchen resonated with me, but these practices seemed a vague starting point, although beneficial for developing concentration. I chanced upon some qigong practices ( i still regularly do the microcosmic orbit ) , I seem to have a proclivity for an awareness of the energy system, prana, etc. I began practicing the "abiding in rigpa" style, emphasizing mindfulness thought each day, for over a year leading up to reading MCTB.

About 2 years ago, I came across Daniel's book, MCTB. It first struck me as an excellent and detailed reference for the various states and stages, but initially my impression of the vipassana "noting" practice was that it seemed counter-intuitive, and almost crude compared to the practices I had found interesting. So I made the mistake of not putting it into practice initially.

(cont)

In the interum, I read a book detailing clear light / dream yoga practices, and I found this well suited to complement frequent lucid dreams I was having and experimenting with. I eventually had several "clear light" lucid dreams where I meditated in the dream and dissolved myself as well as the dream scape into light / visual vibratory phenomena until I awoke.

Eventually, I found myself reading through MCTB a second time, these last few months, and I payed closer attention to Daniels emphasis of the effectiveness of vipassana noting practice. So I put it to work, setting aside a block of two weeks as a retreat @ home for really seeing what this practice could do.

I very quickly got into interesting and new territory, the structure and predictable unfolding of vipassana is a motivation in itself. I was determined to break through into new insights, for the first time I found myself empowered and practicing in a goal oriented way, as apposed to my previous passive, relaxation ( concentration ) focused practices.

After several days I started finding myself in what seemed like equanimity territory, and the first notable phenomenon I recall was everything seemed to begin strobing. Everything would strobe several times, then everything seemed to collapse into the gap after or between the strobing / bright flashing light. I did not recognize this as fruition / cessation at the time, but since I've been able to experiment and found that sometimes I can induce this, and it does seem like an upward pulling / wiggling in my forehead takes on a life of it's own.

(cont)

While sitting not long after noting the strobing, I found myself in very deep concentration, likely high equanimity, I was able to sit for around 3 hours.. noting pain, discomfort, anticipation, ease, equanimity, etc. Eventually I observed what I think was a presentation of one of the doors, it appeared like a distant glowing galaxy-like torus, that seemed to fold in on itself, or to switch perspective, like a flipping of the mind. What was odd about this one was I seemed to be "out" for a good period, possibly 10-20 mins. It was like a deep sleep, although my initial recollection after the door is a very clear, bright, quiet state of mind .. I thought I may have nodded off at the time.

I find it ironic that this type of fruition seemed to be proceeded by the mind feeling as tho it got caught up in a thought beforehand, at this point I was just riding the momentum I'd built up, and had ceased any "effort" in meditation. In this same sitting I had a slightly less clear sort of imagery or perspective of all sensations extending from a singular base in interwoven tendrils arises, then they are pulled back into the "ground" or the void. I don't know what to make of this, as a door or just a visual phenomenon.

A week or two later, I was investigating again, and resolved to attempt to call up this torus type door again, I was focusing on no-self / impermanence aspect. This time however, I again got caught in that sort of thought beforehand.. then found "me" as void on my side, with an image of me staring back at me like a mirror in front of me, then these seemed to collapse into one another. No recollection of the torus phenomenon with this one however. I think my clarity / speed of my attention leaves much room for improvement.

(cont)

Finally, it seems like in the last couple weeks I've been cycling ( for awhile it seemed like a cycle would take roughly an hour, if for example i am sitting reading or concentrating somewhat.. to up to a day but this could be my not noticing certain stages as well ), I have been woken up several times in the morning by what seemed like fruitions, and I'll be going about my day or sitting and reading and notice a pressure build up and fruitions seem to follow. I've been a pretty hard critic on myself, and I'm still open to any possibility, but it seems like the evidence is mounting.

Basically, I would like to know what advice anyone would have for getting more familiar with / mastering the various stages of insight of a path, as well as tips or hitns regarding concentration states. ( the first four jhanas seem to come very quickly already and i may have access up to "infinite consciousness", however, and my field of vision consists of vibrations 24/7, and I can perceive body vibrations with a quick momentary shift ) Also any tricks or techniques for calling up fruitions or extending their duration would be much appreciated. Or any other relevant advice. =] I fully intend to continue this process to it's completion, but from what I've read so far it seems like it might be wise to develop some proficiency with a current path; assuming one has been attained.

Many thanks to whoever takes the time to read through this and respond, I hope it's not too lengthy, but it seemed like context was important for framing the question(s).

best regards,

justin

p.s. some posts edited for typos

Hello malt.

First of all, welcome to KFDh! It's always exciting seeing new yogis join this wonderful community.

It is often common to self-diagnose erroneously one's practice, specially when one is new to this whole cycle and insight stages thing. You have gone into some detail about what you believe to be the fruition stage but have not mentioned much about the dukkha nanas (dark night) which becomes a very clear indication of one's progress past the whole "light show" of the A&P (4th nana) stage. With that said, without more information about how you have experienced (if you have actually gone through the first cycle of insight) it is extremely hard to pin point your actual cutting edge practice. Based on your previous experience with other types of meditation techniques I would not be surprised if your are just experiencing the A&P's in a less conventional way than the average "pure-insight" yogi would. Ingram believes that 99% of all the episodes new yogis encounter and believe to be fruitions/Stream Entry are just different versions of A&P. My guess is that you may fall into that percentage. Again, it is hard to pin point where you are right now without hearing more about your experience through the rest of the nanas, particular the dark night territory.

"Finally, it seems like in the last couple weeks I've been cycling ( for awhile it seemed like a cycle would take roughly an hour, if for example i am sitting reading or concentrating somewhat.. to up to a day but this could be my not noticing certain stages as well ), I have been woken up several times in the morning by what seemed like fruitions, and I'll be going about my day or sitting and reading and notice a pressure build up and fruitions seem to follow. I've been a pretty hard critic on myself, and I'm still open to any possibility, but it seems like the evidence is mounting.
"

Malt,

You could not be cycling through the stages of insght unless you have reached 2nd path. It is only then that you'll start to cycle over and over again.

My advice is to try to describe a bit more about your whole experience with insight and noting, What happened in your sitting/every day after the A&P, how did you deal with the dark night, etc. It will be a lot easier to get a sense as to where you may be right now. More importantly, I would suggest that you meet with Kenneth and go over what your experiences have been so far. He'll be able to not only help you in finding what your actual progress is, he can guide you in continuing your progress.

JF

" I fully intend to continue this process to it's completion, but from what I've read so far it seems like it might be wise to develop some proficiency with a current path; assuming one has been attained.
"

oh trust me, you do not have to worry about whether you have developed proficiency within a current path, it will happen naturally (so either you have, or you have not). As you will soon realize, one has very little (if any) saying in this process!
Once the ride begings all you can really do is ride it!


with metta,

Jorge Freddy

Hello Jorge!

Thanks for the welcome! And for taking the time to read over my post and for letting me know your impressions. Part of the reason I tried to add plenty of details is so that more knowledgeable people could correct me if I am mis-diagnosing myself. =] While I have spent an inordinate amount of time dealing with the dark knight stuff, several years in fact, I've managed to cope pretty well. It wouldn't be too far off if I described a failed relationship due to dark knight symptoms, but I have a much better handle on not letting this bleed through nowadays. I omitted a lot of the dark knight stuff because I wanted to avoid making this already long post even longer. Typically what I will notice as it relates to dark knight stages currently is i'll note aversion and disgust, though I allow these arise and pass internally without bleeding through 98% of the time. In the past I've gone through intense anxiety, depression, fear, doubt, etc. Another thing I notice quite a bit is irritability related to very sensitive hearing, although I am not sure if that directly relates to the dark knight specifically, or another stage.

I found some of the similarities about how the doors are supposed to present and some things i've observed recently quite striking, so I've been considering the possibility that these were doors to fruitions, however I am definitely open to feedback here.

The thing about the A&P event I described early on ( it occured in 2003 ), is that it was some time ( a year or more ) before I was able to get my bearings on what had occurred, since for me this was a spontaneous A&P that was in part initiated by a psychedelic. Furthermore, I have only recently ( in the past 3 months or so ) really gotten the hang of noting practice and applied it intensively.

(cont)

Because I basically had no spiritual knowledge or practice to speak of after the spontaneous A&P event in 2003, it took me a considerable amount of time researching before I even began a formal practice after that event. I could go into detail about that particular event, and I will be happy to if requested, but I have been told elsewhere and I am quite sure it was an A&P event / opening.

The next chance I get to sit I will make a detailed log of the session and share it here, perhaps that will be more helpful than this long and general summary above, that spans several years, and only goes into detail about very recent events. Thanks again and best wishes!

Justin

(edited, typos )

Alright, I sat for a bit earlier and did a little bit of reading afterwards. It seems likely that you are correct with your A&P diagnosis Jorge. Today when I sat I attempted to allow myself to rise through the strata of mind that I have access to.

My ability / clarity regarding distinguishing these is limited at this point. So, I sat and allowed this to happen without attempting to influence it at all. I observed my breath and after a few minutes, I took the concentration state I found myself in as object. I was not noting this time, just allowing things to progress. I think I may understand what is referring to when one jhana "sloughs" off it's quality and becomes another. My focus became quite wide, and spacious.

For me this is always very visual, my sense of body becomes vague, and I find myself immersed in a spacious field of 3-d visual snow. I observed colors flowing about, lightening like phenomena, some lights, and eventually, the strobing began again. At this point my body feels very vague, numb, as daniel describes it.. like one is sedated. At this point, I noticed that when I sort of allowed my concentration to expand out and become more spacious, that there may be a connection with that and the strobing.

The strobing would happen, then I would shift and build back up to the strobing. I tried to pay close attention to the strobing to see if only part of everything was strobing, I noticed what seemed to be the field of sensations around me strobed, and well as bodily sensations. But I couldn't quite catch if the "observer" was strobing as well.. at times I did seem to notice very short gaps but I can't be certain.

Is it common to find oneself repeatedly going over this A&P strobing stage?

(cont).

If that's what's occuring, i'm riding the arc up to A&P, strobing, maybe touching some deeper concentration territory beyond that, which is quite vague to me at this point. I noticed with the strobing what seemed to be a white tunnel of energy extending upwards from around my forehead / crown area. This is without interfering with noting.

I did notice vibrations, pains, various sensations and I observed them / saw through them, let them arise and pass during this sit. I also observed the sensations that made up for instance, my hands to be arising and passing.. and strobing out of existence in sync with the visual strobing. I also noticed lots of visual glimpses or frames, sort of like grief glimpses of dream images, that seemed to occur as concentration deepened after the strobing.

How can one distinguish between A&P phenomena and fruitions? I guess if the strobing includes everything? If the dukkha nanas are part of the territory that is a key factor here too I assume?

I think I've experienced dark knight symptoms in the past, for quite some time after my initial A&P ( which was quite different than how this is presenting now ) but since I've really put noting into practice, I've only noticed very slight dark night type stuff.

I'll continue practicing with the working assumption that I'm @ A&P for now, and see where this goes, any tips are welcome.

Kind Regards,

Justin

edit: typos

Hi Justin,
It often happens that one crosses the A&P only to drop back again into the 3C's or lower. You may go around in a loop for a while before you break out of it. Also when DK begins you will still experience A&Ps, at least this is what happened for me as you move through the various stages you have already passed. I'm not sure what you mean by a fruition only to say that a fruition attained at the end of the first insight cycle is something you don't miss or mistake for anything else. It is like a brief wipe out, or a blip in your consciousness, like a sudden blot of black that comes and goes. This is often then accompanied by laughter or just smiling as it did for me. And then the process begins again. Not to worry though, you have good intention and a strong willingness it appears to accept what is coming up and work with that which suggests humility which is always a good tool in this business. Well done and keep going. Progress is sure to be yours. Hope this helps.
Paul

Hi Paul,

Ah I see, that helps clarify things for me. Apparently I got a bit confused there for a bit. But better to ask and be corrected than to wallow, eh? Looks like I'll be getting back to doing lots of noting and see if I can bust this loop. I had this funny mental image / thought when I woke a few days ago, it occured to me that I was like a hampster on a hampster wheel.. going in circles thinking I was actually getting somewhere, heh. ( then oddly, I ended up reading an old post on here of kenneth mentioning a similar analogy ) =P Thanks for the info and the encouragement!

justin