Dating and stream entry

Wondering what others have experienced regarding intensive path work i.e. ( 2hr formal a day ) and dating.
The relationship I was in ended and now I'm wondering if I should just focus on the work and enjoy the headspace and bandwidth
that seems to get used up with romance. Or forge ahead with dating being open for whatever happens and just see it as another place to practice.
Side note I'm a romantic who likes to write love songs and wallow in the longing, desire, rejection, hope, excitement etc.

This should get juicy real quick.

Thanks

Hi Keith,

As a general rule, it makes sense to design a lifestyle that combines major interests in a harmonious way. In other words, when you realize that mediation is a big part of your life and likely to stay that way, it's practical to date people who feel the same way. It's more efficient that way!

Needless to say, some people who become interested in enlightenment are already in committed relationships and the last thing I'm suggesting is that they should ditch their current partners just because they may not share a passion for meditation. For you, though, since you are dating and will presumably end up in a long term relationship, why not look for that person in a dharma community? That way, you know, going in, that the two of you are likely to share this particular value.

For a long time, now, I've been thinking in terms of "crafting a lifestyle" that is conducive to awakening. So when I met my wife six years ago in a meditation center it felt good to know that whatever challenges we might face together, differing opinions with regard to the value of enlightenment would not be among them. I think of this as pragmatic dharma in the broadest sense; most of us are householders who are getting enlightened while holding jobs and relationships and in many cases raising families. So if you can stack the deck in your favor by dating other meditators, do it!

Kenneth

I like Kenneth's take on this.
From my POV: I had a terrible relationship with a girl who was into meditation/spirituality, and have a wonderful relationship right now with a girl who does appreciate meditation, but is not drawn to it much. And I just happened to fall in-love with someone who had no background / interest in enlightenment. Life happens, and we just don't know where we'll end up
So while it would be ideal to have both partners into the same thing, it also works when the other partner is supportive but is not into it so much.

"
So while it would be ideal to have both partners into the same thing, it also works when the other partner is supportive but is not into it so much."

I second this! My girlfriend is very vocal about not having any interest in meditation or enlightenment. We do go to yoga class together, but that's about it. She's absolutely great, and in a way, I like that she's not interested. She helps me stay grounded, or least, keep my dharma geekery to socially acceptable levels, and she helps me remember that there's many other valuable points-of-view on what one should be doing with their life.

Though at the same time, I can definitely see the appeal of what Kenneth says as well. Particularly for single yogis. I think the key is to find someone who can appreciate how important these pursuits are to us. As long as they're supportive, we can consider the deck well stacked. : )

There is also the problem that yogis, let's be honest here, are kind of nutty people. Dating nutty people takes some effort. I think there needs to be at least one sane and grounded person in a relationship. I also find that's typically not my role.

hahah good one Owen.
I'll even go further than that and say that sane and grounded people are hard to find. Do they even exist?

"hahah good one Owen.
I'll even go further than that and say that sane and grounded people are hard to find. Do they even exist? "

Yes, but they are a tightly controlled, precious resource.

There was a recent release:
www.theonion.com/video/obama-releases-50...ategic-bachel,18095/

Seriously now, don't you find that you practice is moving you towards becoming a more sane and grounded person? (All that grounding you're doing

"Seriously now, don't you find that you practice is moving you towards becoming a more sane and grounded person? (All that grounding you're doing "

Yes indeed. It also oddly makes other people seem kinda crazy and filled with drama. My dating pool is shrinking.

I was already married when I crossed the A&P and my wife could care less about enlightenment or meditation. The downside is that my best friend could care less about one of the most important parts of my life. The upside is that trying to explain it to her in a way that makes sense to her really helps me to make sense of it myself!

Regarding difficulty being in a relationship where one's partner doesn't 'see' the value of what you are doing is that my practice often gets slammed when relational difficulties arise. I stopped sharing the details of my practice with my wife after I crossed the A&P more as a self preservation measure than anything else. My wife has an idea of what advanced yogis are supposed to be like and I just don't fit the mold even though I believe I've crossed into 4th path territory recently. Trying to explain to normal folk the nature of experience and what meditation does and requires appears to freak them out unless they are already interested. From time to time I still test the water but response remains more or less the same. In fact recently I was told I've become worse......and yet I know what I can now see and do in a loving and compassionate way has saved our marriage. But then again....everyone has a story.
Paul

I kept giving my wife updates throughout my post A&P. I kept them short and minimal, but I felt it was only fair to keep doing so, even if it did freak her out (and it certainly did).

There's simply no way that this jargon will mean anything to someone who isn't interested, yet it's impossible not to want to share a little of what's going on with your closest friend, and it's also close-to-impossible to find other, non-jargon, terms to express it.

These are the things I kept telling myself throughout the process:
(1) The practice and its effects are entirely my own responsibility. My wife isn't an impediment to me. It is *me* that has decided to become an inconvenience to *her*, for what *I alone* perceive as a higher purpose. A sense of betrayal on her part is inevitable and natural.
(2) I have no way of knowing if I am gaining any wisdom that is applicable to anyone but myself. I have to respect that this is meaningless to everyone else in my life, however vital it may seem to me.
(3) This practice is the practice of moment-to-moment attention, and nothing else. Drop the Dhamma Lifestyle with its strange and alienating accoutrements. I have a lot of pleasures and interests that make me an interesting person, and those should not be submerged for the sake of the practice. The practice is of value ONLY INASMAUCH as it makes living this life better.

None of these make it obvious how to bridge the contradictions that come part-and-parcel with the practice, but they did help me NOT make some mistakes that I was previously in danger of making.

Thanks,
interesting to hear everyones take, I find myself freaking a close friend of mine out when I go into the lingo and concepts and he' s ,"read a few sutras in his day" as he likes to say, it's fun and kinda like talking crazy **** after you smoke a joint.

I start coming up with my own metaphors then it's on like Sean - of the Dead.
Fun but I'm sure the Partner would get tired of it after a while if they had no personal experience.
As for the partner that is not on the path and if so not on the same part I guess I have a clearer view of what I'm in for once I commit to a relationship. What I recently experienced was the emotional turmoil that was kicked up by wanting not wanting not knowing fear lust desire all the other stuff that is not in play when I'm buying soy milk.
So I'm curious if anyone finds dating detrimental to progress or can one find a skillful way to make dating workable for both Sila and Pranja.

You guys are gonna hate me for the this but...
Dating + Stream Entry = Data Entry
Cheers

"Thanks,
interesting to hear everyones take, I find myself freaking a close friend of mine out when I go into the lingo and concepts and he' s ,"read a few sutras in his day" as he likes to say, it's fun and kinda like talking crazy **** after you smoke a joint.

I start coming up with my own metaphors then it's on like Sean - of the Dead.
Fun but I'm sure the Partner would get tired of it after a while if they had no personal experience.
As for the partner that is not on the path and if so not on the same part I guess I have a clearer view of what I'm in for once I commit to a relationship. What I recently experienced was the emotional turmoil that was kicked up by wanting not wanting not knowing fear lust desire all the other stuff that is not in play when I'm buying soy milk.
So I'm curious if anyone finds dating detrimental to progress or can one find a skillful way to make dating workable for both Sila and Pranja.

You guys are gonna hate me for the this but...
Dating + Stream Entry = Data Entry
Cheers"

Short answer, (at least for me these days) I don't talk about practice outside the sangha. Nobody wants to hear about it. That includes dating.

I agree, Owen.
If someone's interested, they usually ask or express some sort of interest.

Well said, well said

Perhaps its better to integrate wisdom and insight into our daily lives via morality rather than teaching ones who have not asked to be taught by ones not yet teachers.

Thanks

"I agree, Owen. If someone's interested, they usually ask or express some sort of interest. -Yadid"

Yes, this is wisdom. Bill Hamilton used to say, "Don't talk to people about enlightenment unless they're asking." And he pointed out the importance of reading between the lines to understand when they are asking and when they are not. For example, he said, if you've just returned from a three month year-end meditation retreat at Insight Meditation Society, people will perk up with curiosity and ask what it was like. This is your cue to tell them about the beautiful fall colors and your long walks by the lake. They are not asking for a detailed analysis of the 4 Paths of Enlightenment or a meticulous description of the rise and fall of the abdomen. They don't want to know.

After you've told them about the red and yellow leaves of New England, if they really want to know more about meditation and enlightenment, they will press you for it.

I've followed Bill's guidelines on this matter ever since hearing them and I must say it's some of the best practical advice I've heard!

It is good advice indeed. But I've also fallen into the trap of talking too much with people who are not interested, simply because I am VERY interested, and I guess we tend to talk about the things we like.

Good thread. I think most of us have realized at some point or another that we are talking about this stuff with someone who doesn't understand or care to understand. I think its best to have a "you ask, i'll tell" policy. But I no longer volunteer anything about my spiritual life. If someone is talking about their spiritual life I will chime in, strangely though I try to frame whatever I am saying in the context of their perspective. So if they are a Christian I will frame whatever I am saying in a theistic perspective. If they are more of a naturalist/general seeker I will put any comments I have in that context. But usually I find it more interesting to listen. I learn more that way...

Edited to add: I think Owen makes a good point. The need to talk about our current practice is what the Sangha is for. And thank god for that. Its helped me out in ways I couldn't have imagined a year ago when I started serious practice...

Yeh, Im a fool for ever doing this in the past. I usually now just run with the "you ask, I'll explain if continued follow up questions are asked" But Ive made the mistake of going on a long winded rant about awakening. Ooof! Last time I'll do that. Only people who are truly interested will not cringe or yawn at what I say.

And another thing, never use awakening as an excuse for being a prick in a relationship. Ive made that one too. There is being a 4th pather and helping people here, and then there is being Nick with all his peculiarities positive and negative with his fiancee. I gotta remind myself of that a lot.

Life!

Yup, I've made these mistakes too. My poor wife got an earful when I first discovered Buddhist Geeks and found Daniel's book, both of which reignited my long dormant practice. I totally burnt her out early on, and that was before I even got back into a regular sitting practice. I bored her with theory. Yikes! Now her tolerance level is so low. It's a shame because every now and then she shows a glimmer of interest, and I know deep down that she has an inherent wisdom that would appreciate this stuff (and with a much more mature balance than I bring to the table). So, yes, tread lightly.

But, to respond directly to Keith's question: 'So I'm curious if anyone finds dating detrimental to progress or can one find a skillful way to make dating workable for both Sila and Pranja.' '“ KeithStrand

If there is one thing I've learned from this community is that anyone can make progress on the path and get enlightened regardless of your personal life situation. So, make dating workable by applying the techniques Kenneth teaches here. No doubt dating has its ups and downs and you'll have to find a balance. Great! That should give you plenty of material to work with. Dating is only detrimental to the extent you remain embedded in those ups and downs.

Well said and thanks for that burn notice for the partner. I felt that creeping in and had to find a balance. Last weekend she was sewing her own meditation cushion in front of me , talk about Dharma porn, this weekend she's off with another bloke. How's that for up and down. YeHaw!!!

Did not want to end this thread on an unskilled note so the insight gained was that I should indeed not believe my thoughts for they are not only impermanent but often
not even true.

Cheers