Jhana Litmus Tests

So, I've been tinkering and trying to get more familiar with the jhanas lately and have been thinking about Kenneth's mental nose pinching test for first jhana. For those who may not be familiar, as you are working on concentration practice and the attention starts to become more focused and narrow, you can try to mentally pinch your nose with your index finger and thumb. This can allow you to lock into first jhana, but also it can act as a way to confirm that you are in first jhana. Pre-first jhana, it would be difficult to sustain this mental activity and in second jhana and higher the focus is too wide, so it would be a struggle to do the mental pinch without coming out of the higher jhana.

During some sessions with Kenneth, while in 4th jhana territory, he has had me do a sort of mental scan within the skull searching for areas of activity or non-activity. I found that you can scan within the skull in this way as if shining a flashlight from within. What I've noticed in recent sits is that this type of scanning is extremely difficult if not impossible in jhanas 1-3, but is quite natural in 4th. So, maybe this type of scanning can act as a litmus test for 4th jhana in the same way that nose pinching is for 1st, although I suspect that the scanning can be done in the arupa jhanas, so maybe it's not the best analogy.

Is this consistent with others' experiences? Can anyone think of litmus tests for any of the other jhanas (other than the traditional jhana factors)?

I dunno about a litmus test, but the coolness on the skin in third jhana is always really clear and a good indicator of that particular jhana.

"I dunno about a litmus test, but the coolness on the skin in third jhana is always really clear and a good indicator of that particular jhana."

Oh definitely, and the brightness and energy surge is usually a good tip off for second. These indicators seem to just happen on their own though, right? I guess I was wondering if there are any mental activities a yogi could do to confirm where they were, like the nose pinching.

I've tried the mental nose pinch before, and have come away with questions. Maybe I'm missing something fundamental.
- Are you supposed to try to visualize this in great deep detail or just lightly?
- How long should you sustain the pinch for? A moment, 5 seconds, a minute? Indefinitely if you want to stay in first jhana?
- Should you shift and lock your focus entirely to the mental pinch?
- Do you try to maintain the narrow focus on your object at the same time as the mental pinch?

Can anyone explain this in more detail?

andymr, I'm a beginner so hopefully someone else will give some feedback. My understanding is that if you are in second jhana your attention is too difuse to be able to visualize fingers pinching your nose. My experience was that I had to actually pull my attention in(or collapse it) in order to visualize this. It's similar to looking at a distant object then trying to see the end of your nose, you can do it, but you have to drastically alter your focus. Hope this helps.

So, some more testing. I need to fess up here. I don't have the jhanas down, do not have stream entry yet, and would place myself in possibly in Dissolution. I'm pretty sure I've had third jhana a few times, but don't think I've hit fourth intentionally.

So, take my statements about jhana with a grain of salt.

Sat last night, go to what I thought was first jhana. Focus of attention seemed somewhere in front of my face, attention was sustained. Tried the nose pinch thing, and was able to visualize myself reaching my arm up, turning my palm toward my face, moving my fingers apart and then squeezing my nose. So far, so good.

Sat some more, felt the pull into second jhana. Now, at this point, my attention seemed a bit wider, and seemed to take in more of my body. Focus of attention seemed more spread out than focused on a point in front of my nose. Tried the nose pinch thing again. Maybe I wan't fully in second jhana, but it did seem that as soon as I started visualizing the pinch, my attention wanted to move to much closer to my face and seemed to be more narrow. I stopped visualizing at that point, because I wanted to remain in second jhana.

So, that little bit of experimentation seems to be consistent with jfmatteson's statments.

Here's the problem. Or maybe it's not a problem. Not sure yet.

As I'm writing this, I'm fairly confident I'm not in any jhana. Yet, I can reach up and mentally pinch my nose fairly well. Does this actually mean I'm in first jhana when I do that? Or, perhaps, simply my concentration is fairly well developed?

Interested to hear from other that have tried this, and definitely interested in hearing about any other litmus tests that may be around to tell jhanas apart.

"
Here's the problem. Or maybe it's not a problem. Not sure yet.

As I'm writing this, I'm fairly confident I'm not in any jhana. Yet, I can reach up and mentally pinch my nose fairly well. Does this actually mean I'm in first jhana when I do that? Or, perhaps, simply my concentration is fairly well developed?

Interested to hear from other that have tried this, and definitely interested in hearing about any other litmus tests that may be around to tell jhanas apart.

"

Looks like you are getting the hang of it. If your experience is anything like mine, I would guess that there is a difference in the mental nose pinch while you are sitting at your computer vs. sitting in meditation doing a formal concentration practice. As I try it now, yes I can mentally do it, but then I'm pretty quickly distracted with typing these words, formulating how I'm going to express my experience. Now I'm thinking about how hungry I am and what I want for lunch. For me, the difference is the ability to sustain the pinching sensation while doing concentration practice and the extra sensation the pinch brings. As I'm concentrating and I can feel the collection of the attention and the various jhana factors presenting themselves, if I do the nose pinch at that time, it seems to really help solidify the jhana and lock it in so to speak. Even if it falls short of 'hard jhana' there is a clearer sense that I'm in it, almost like breaking through some thin layer to enter the jhana itself. Do you experience a difference like this?

So some more playing...

Sitting at my desk, I leaned back in my chair, closed my eyes, and tried the pinch. I could do it quickly. However, when I tried to sustain the pinch, I couldn't. I got the same distractions you talk about.

For me, something pretty interesting happened. I was trying pretty hard to concentrate, but I kept getting these flashes of other sensations - sounds, mental images, touch sensations, etc. It was flashing by pretty quickly, about 10 sensations or so per second interspersed with the nose pinch. I've never been able to see stuff at that speed before! It was like some strange video effect, this frame-by-frame sense of sensations flashing by.

Now I'm excited. I'll go home and experiment with it in a formal sit and see what happens when I hit first jhana.

For what it's worth, these are the physical sensation I get as I go through the arc:

1st jhana: nose pinch works, but I always notice the skin and focus around the mouth.

2nd jhana: non-effort, inward focus

3rd jhana: attention moves externally, coolness on the skin

4th jhana: pain of the dukkha nanas drops, first at the top of the head and then proceeds down the body

5th jhana: misplace body sensations (mostly), keep sensation of a center point with space proceeding out from that.

6th jhana: sensations move to the back of the head, almost like I've "perched" there.

7th jhana: quick forward eye focus, mind stops caring about input. Almost a "whoosh" when it happens.

8th jhana: feeling of a point about 2 inches back from 3rd eye spot around which my mind wants to focus

9th jhana: feeling of upward movement, body shows back up

10 jhana: tingling at the crown

11 jhana: more intense movement from the crown to the third eye. Mind feels VERY sharp.

12 jhana: breathing is very noticeable and pleasant.

13 jhana: feeling of attention moving down into the head, behind the eyes. Very diffuse.

NS: there is a "button" that I can find if I move my attention around along the inside of the skull on the right-hand side. Feelings of being drawn down into non-"me-ness" the longer I hold it.

Owen, your summary of the sensations you experience going through the arc in #8 is like the Cliff's Notes for part two of the "Jhanic Free For All" podcast:)

Eric

"Owen, your summary of the sensations you experience going through the arc in #8 is like the Cliff's Notes for part two of the "Jhanic Free For All" podcast:)

Eric"

Cool, somebody is actually listening to the podcast!

"Cool, somebody is actually listening to the podcast! "

Yes we do! Keep 'em coming.

"Now I'm excited. I'll go home and experiment with it in a formal sit and see what happens when I hit first jhana."

How did it go Andy? Have you thought about doing a practice notes thread on here? It can be very helpful.

"Cool, somebody is actually listening to the podcast! "

I too have listened to the podcasts. I discovered them last week, and have listened to all of them at least once. Definitely keep them coming!

May I make a suggestion, at the risk of diverting this thread? Consider adding an intro to each podcast that indicates what it's about and which podcast in a series it is. I found that on my iPod the A&P ones were out of order, and i had a hard time figuring out what the order should be.

"How did it go Andy? Have you thought about doing a practice notes thread on here? It can be very helpful."

Re: how did it go?

Results were inconclusive. I found that I wasn't able to sustain the mental nose pinch during formal meditation. Does this mean that I wasn't yet in first jhana, or does it mean that I'm past first jhana? I'm not really clear about which jhana I'm in most of the time. I've decided to put in additional time doing kasina practice to help boost my concentration. The last time I tried that, it seem to help move me forward in my insight practices.


Re: Have I thought about doing a practice notes thread?

Yes, I have. I admit that after the last month or so of practice, I'm confused as to where I actually am on the maps. I'm pretty sure I crossed the A&P in late September. In November I had a hard time focusing on sitting, got sleepy a whole lot, but had no real clear fear, misery, disgust, etc. Now, I'm feeling a bit bored and confused in my sits, and seem to just be hanging out with no clear progress being made, and not a whole lot to report. I can't be really sure I'm in Equanimity since I'm not really sure about passing Dark Night, but I'm not having the bliss, eyelid lights, and body sensations of A&P.

I'm not exactly sure what's holding me back from posting a practice thread. Are there any specific requirement for a practice thread?

"I too have listened to the podcasts. I discovered them last week, and have listened to all of them at least once. Definitely keep them coming!

May I make a suggestion, at the risk of diverting this thread? Consider adding an intro to each podcast that indicates what it's about and which podcast in a series it is. I found that on my iPod the A&P ones were out of order, and i had a hard time figuring out what the order should be."

Yeah, that would be my fault. I got the order backwards when uploading them. This is not a professional podcasting outfit.