introductory thread!

Hello everyone! I feel like with my first thread here I kind of barged in on you all being like "HI!! ARE DRUGS COOL? ALSO IVE REACHED SOME PATHS LOL". So - apologies for that! As Nikolai on that thread requested, here is a detailed thread summarizing my practice. I also realize it might be good to get a few more people commenting and giving me advice, if they are so inclined.

My progress: I started meditating this year, around New Year's. I used the book "8 Minute Meditation", doing 8 mins a day, moving up to 10, eventually doing 20, but only every other day or so. A month or two after I started, I noticed my vision became clearer. I was really enjoying life more! It was fun to walk around and actually look at stuff - I realized how much I ignored my surroundings when I walked around.

On a cruise another month or so later, I was sitting down, after having read the Power of Now, idly scanning my body and listening to Dedicated, by Linkin Park, when I was suddenly thrust into an altered state of consciousness. Basically the vision behind my eyes, the blackness, greatly expanded, and became three dimensional. I was enthralled and surprised and my heart was beating and I was just like "what is this??" I thought I even felt a presence in that space. (I've heard not to name anything on the Maps or call them Jhanas or what not so I'll refrain saying what I think it was). It quickly faded, and of course I couldn't re-attain it, but it convinced me to keep meditating.

Next few months went by without much to notice. After a while I did pick up on the fact that, after I stopped meditating, when I went to lie down, I would start to see flickering. Basically I would see white light flickering for a few seconds, then it would fade. Wondering what it was I made posts on thetaobums until someone recommended I read MCTB. I did so, found it to be compelling, and started doing noting practice. I believe this was around August 10th of this year as that's when I made some posts on DhO. If you care for more detail, check this post out, it has lots of description without speculation (except for first part of post): www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discu...oards/message/933853 .

Unclear when, but after this point, my life started sucking. Actually, at first, I would fluctuate between a really good mood, when everything seemed wonderful for no reason (close to the feeling of being on MDMA, if anyone has partaken), and then a really ****** mood where I would get pissed off at every little thing. I had some problems with procrastinating before, but now they greatly intensified, to the point where I would sit there at work, staring at my code, hating myself for not being able to do anything, but still not just going ahead and actually doing anything. On two or three occasions, when I got home at night, I'd just sit, starting to meditate, and be brought to tears about how much everything sucks. Not fun stuff.

This got worse, to the point where the bad moods would predominate. Around here I also started to do candle flame meditation. It seemed to work out. Check out these posts for non-speculative details: www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discu...#_19_message_1209641 , www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discu...#_19_message_1215436 , and all the ones after. Still life continued to suck though.

The candle flame meditation helped my concentration, I believe. At this point I was able to sit down and quickly get pleasant, blissful sensations in my body, which I could attempt to intensify. Also around this point I noted a real build-up in my meditation ability. During sits I felt like I could just meditate for hours. I told all my friends I was "really getting into meditation." I saw pretty colors and such while sitting. Read this for more (warning: speculation): www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discu...ards/message/1248404 .

At one point it all just faded, and I was left feeling a lot of sensual desire. Meditating became annoying again. My description is biased by what I know now and a poor memory but I believe this is when life started getting worse, with no more good moods.

Such it continued, and I started getting really, really intense frustration, not only in daily life, but during sits, too. Then one day, about an hour into a session, while feeling annoyed at not being able to note and perceive what I thought I should be able to, it finally came across my angry mind to look at the anger and what caused it, really, and it finally unknotted as I realized it was just suffering, and impermanent, and it's OK for my mind to do that because it had been trained that way for years and years of thinking particular things. The biggest thing I felt was immense relief. That state, the relieved state right after, is what so far seemed to have the biggest impact on my normal life (First Training, Training in Morality). This is when I wrote this post, excuse the speculation there: www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discu...ards/message/1307896 .

So I kept going, being happier now. I started noticing awareness "crawling over my body". I got into calm states while meditating. Then one day, or two days in a row, I felt a weird little head-snapping thing, followed by a wave of something, not really a bliss wave, but a wave nonetheless. I didn't feel any different, though... but as I kept meditating, I did. Warning, speculation, again, but this is my report on what I think my Stream Entry was: www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discu...ards/message/1320285 .

There's a bunch of stuff in there, but most noticeable after-effects: I felt I was able to concentrate much better, being able to direct my mind towards what I felt were supposed to be the particular nyanas and feeling things I thought I was supposed to feel at each one (no guarantee that means anything). I thought particular jhana numbers and felt what I thought each one was supposed to feel like. (Again, very intent-oriented practice.) During daily life, I felt much less insecure, no cravings or desires, happier in general, but overall surprisingly the same. I also was able to flutter my eyes, try to perceive the last flutter, and feel a jolt or series of jolts/trembling, followed by a blissful wave.

Now it gets confusing. Again, very intent-oriented practice, so I wondered whether I was on the way to 2nd path or had already attained it. Here are the almost most recent sits that I had, filled with descriptions: www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discu...ards/message/1330349 . And here is the very latest: www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discu...ards/message/1341553 .

As to how I feel now... I feel very unhappy. Disillusioned, maybe. I feel exactly the same as before I started all this, except that now I believe any bad feelings I have are not caused by random life events, but by a "Dark Night", that they're not curable by any traditional means, that I cannot live a happy life in the traditional sense (by just stopping practicing), also that I shouldn't talk to anybody about this because that would be dark-night bleed-through (not that I talked to people about my problems, anyway; I was quite reticent) that basically I have to hold on and keep going until I reach what I now call "MCTB Arahat", as it's not even clear that is an Arahat at all, and I know that there is more to go even after that based, for example, on Daniel Ingram's thread about how much he loves PCEs, and what an incredible effect they have over him (my words, not his, but based on the descriptions...) even after 7 years of being an Arahat. Also I am very interested in reading Dharma stuff like DhO and this site, but what does that say about anything. To summaryize, not in a ogod mood. I also feel I should have been over these bad moods past 1st path, but I guess not. At least I haven't been brought to tears, yet.

Anyway, that's my story! Let me know what you think. In particular, let me know any suggestions you have about continuing to practice or live in daily life. I haven't gone on any retreats yet, so maybe that is in order. Feel free to ask me anything, and thanks for reading this ginormous introduction thread!

Ah I just noticed the latest sit I described above seems to be called 2nd Gear here, that is, trying to stay with that watcher. Just now, sick of everything, I was going to sit and do jhanas, but then said "screw even that" so just sat there not doing anything. Guess that is 3rd Gear, which seems to be zazen? Stuff was happening, mostly in the visual field, so I guess I don't really have to do anything for stuff to happen eh?

" Basically the vision behind my eyes, the blackness, greatly expanded, and became three dimensional. I was enthralled and surprised and my heart was beating and I was just like "what is this??" I thought I even felt a presence in that space. (I've heard not to name anything on the Maps or call them Jhanas or what not so I'll refrain saying what I think it was). It quickly faded, and of course I couldn't re-attain it, but it convinced me to keep meditating.
- Beoman"

Hi Beoman and welcome on board!

I had a similar experience many years ago when I was doing pranayama and breath meditation and knew nothing of jhanas. I fell through my body and all the tension was released. I was just a point of conciousness floating in complete darkness that seemed infinite and alive. There was a feeling of peace that was new to me. I could not repeat this experience even though I continued to do intensive breath retentions and meditation.

When I started to practise with Kenneth and started getting to Arupa Jhanas, I immediately recognized 5th jhana to be the same state that I spontaniously had many years ago. Strange thing is, that although my practise has developed much since then, it has never been so strong and clear like the first time.

Antero.

Excellent beoman,

Now try describing exactly what occurs ever time you sit. Avoid calling your experiences a jhana, nana, fruition or path. In your next future posts try following Kenneth's advice here: kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/43...h's+Practice+Journal

"I just want to follow up on Nick's suggestion to modify your reporting style a bit so we can tell what is going on with you. Check out this excerpt from Nadav's Practice Notes:

"This morning I sat for 45 minutes. I felt relaxed and determined.
Noted some itching... a specific point below my left eye that was persistent in one of yesterday's sits too.
Lots of visual remembering thoughts, and planning thoughts.
Some pulsations in the arm and very subtle tingling all over the back. I focused on the breath for a bit and caught myself absorbed in thoughts/stories. I noted thoughts and then the other 3 foundations of mindfulness separately for a few minutes.
Noted some judging thoughts about my practice / desire for progress.
Some slight vibrations in the hands. Tension going up and down my back. Itching.
The itching disappeared and for a while there was very little body activity, but the mind was very active. I realized that I was worried about this and searching for body sensations (noted as 'searching').
About 30 minutes in, my legs started throbbing. The legs and hands felt hot. I noticed vibrations within the burning sensations in the leg."

This is a good example of the kind of reporting that will best help us help you. Notice that there is no speculation, just painfully simple descriptions of what happened in terms of bare phenomena. I know it seems unlikely but it's true that the less you speculate about where you might be on the maps, the easier it is for the rest of us to tell. It's like Dragnet: "Just the facts, Ma'am." Kenneth

"Hi Beoman and welcome on board!

I had a similar experience many years ago when I was doing pranayama and breath meditation and knew nothing of jhanas. I fell through my body and all the tension was released. I was just a point of conciousness floating in complete darkness that seemed infinite and alive. There was a feeling of peace that was new to me. I could not repeat this experience even though I continued to do intensive breath retentions and meditation.

When I started to practise with Kenneth and started getting to Arupa Jhanas, I immediately recognized 5th jhana to be the same state that I spontaniously had many years ago. Strange thing is, that although my practise has developed much since then, it has never been so strong and clear like the first time.

Antero."

Thanks for the welcome! I now pretty clearly recognize it as a rather hard 5th jhana, as well. It also hasn't been as strong or clear for me. I believe the reason is that, when it first happened, we were thrown headfirst into it, not expecting anything like it, and being quite blown away by the experience. Nowadays, maybe we even hit harder versions of the jhana, but it's all a gradual build-up, slow, to be expected, etc. - i.e., not so thrilling. Although while working on 5th jhana and getting it to expand a bit more, I have had little jolts of excitement =P.

I feel it might be useful to try to spell out what happened from Stream Entry to now in a bit more detail, as it also explains why I stopped noting for a little bit. Lots of speculation, here, but at least you can understand my mental state by reading it.

I realized I had Stream Entry either a day after, or a few hours after the sit that did it (unsure which it was). I was meditating, then some trembling/flashing, then a bliss wave. "Woah! was _that_ it?" Right afterwards, I got dropped into really flashing white territory. "A&P must that be?" Shortly after that, it dissolved and faded away - "Ah, _that's_ why it's called Dissolution!" etc., you can read about that on the DhO thread.

After getting a few Fruitions within a few minutes that way, I began trying to figure out how to just "get" one, which makes sense given the analytical nature of my mind. First, I realized that I could go through the Insight stages just by willing it. So I'd be in A&P and incline towards Dissolution, and it would shift. Then I'd incline towards Fear, and it'd shift and I'd feel anxiety/fear in my stomach, etc. Then I found I could name them out of order and immediately arrive there. So I went back and forth between A&P and Equanimity directly to see the differences - very instructional! I could also focus on each one of the 3Chars in each. It was almost fun to sit in Disgust, and really feel the disgust and the suffering of it. There was no worry about it at all since I knew I could leave whenever I wanted.

Then I figured that by inclining my mind a certain way, I could get a Fruition. It was a strange thought process. The no-self one was like... Ah that object isn't me, neither is this perception of the object, neither is my grokking of the perception, and neither is this voice! and upon there I'd have a Fruition.

I could get one by fluttering my eyelids and perceiving the last blink, or by listening to a song and really trying to perceive one drum hit on the ride cymbal. I found I got them without thinking about it - my mind would just wander, and suddenly I'd perceive a bliss wave. I had them talking with my friends by focusing on the suffering their words revealed (inadvertently to them). I could have one by focusing on the bliss wave from a Fruition, riding the wave, noticing its suffering, and having another. I also tried having many many in really rapid succession, and I think I was able to. It seemed like reality was just really chunky.

I found I could have them with my eyes open, just by kind of flexing a really strange mental muscle. I tried to understand what happened in between, but there was always some gap. I understood that it made sense for me not to see my vision blacking out and coming back, since that would be perception, and I wasn't perceiving. While in a bus, I looked out the window, looked at a street lamp passing by, and tried having open-eye fruitions. I felt that there was a slight gap, like the lamp would jump a tiny bit (since I wasn't supposedly perceiving it all in continuity), but I couldn't be sure.

I bring all this up because I just read Kenneth's 1995 letter to Daniel where he talks about "advanced Fruition practice", and it seems like that's just what I was doing. I hadn't read at the time that you can try abiding in the Nibbana for more than just a brief fraction of a second, so I didn't try that at all.

Doubt began to creep in, again. Where these really Fruitions, or just my mind scripting stuff? I was sure there was a gap in perception, but was I really? The rest of my perception seemed so similar...

I still cycled during the day, while walking around. Shortly after, I had a perpetual anxiety in the pit of my stomach, but it didn't bother me so much. After smoking a Hookah, I felt really disgusted internally and just uncomfortable and agh. At some point I was incredibly just BORED with my entire experience, but not really bored, more like meh, nothing is happening. So I definitely had larger cycles within all my forcing myself to go through them during my sits.

I also read that it was really easy to get 2nd path shortly after 1st, and I began wondering if I did already. I could intend something like "different" A&P, "different" Dissolution, and it was the same stages, but less clearly perceived, and a bit more blackness/spaciousness. I could also try willing "1st path fruition" vs. "2nd path fruition", and they seemed different - 2nd ones being a bit more trembling and a bit nicer bliss wave - but I had no way of knowing whether it was just intent messing w/ me.

I really started to get hung up on how intent-focused my post-SE sits were. I decided to just sit and not intend anything for a bit. I felt like I would blaze through the Dark Night in one or two breaths, faintly feeling the outline of each stage, then hang out in Equanimity a bit, but then it was hard to get a Fruition. I had stopped noting in the after-glow, and I stopped now to not let intent get in the way.

Since then I wonder if I went through one or two more cycles. At one point I was trying to focus on emptiness/spaciousness. I decided to just "let my mind go into emptiness", and a few seconds later I felt a bliss wave. It was like post-SE all over, with actually blissful bliss waves (I stopped having them being so blissful with my 'regular' fruitions), powerful Review, jhana access, etc. However I wasn't fully sober at the time so I don't know what to make of it (except

to not get into altered states of mind when I think I'm close to another cycle ending).

Another few days I was trying to perceive the 'totality' of experience. Experience really felt solid! Like it seemed everything was happening at once. I'd sit in the bathroom, and it would feel like vision was uniform and happening at the same time. I got what was maybe a Fruition, but I was unsure, one sit, and from then on when I tried to perceive totality, I couldn't. In that, I would just immediately notice how the sensation of vision happening at once was just a sensation, on top of many different things happening separately. Like now I'm trying to do it and I just notice how it just... doesn't seem uniform. Also when I'm sitting, pre-stream entry I used to perceive my body touching the chair as constant, but now it's just a whole bunch of different sensations arising and passing.

Anyway... all that made me think I had completed another cycle or two, maybe gotten 2nd Path. Or it can just be me being crazy! Really, only time will tell. Now I'm back to noting, I started noting out loud, and it seems to be doing well. I seem to be undoing some of the focus on intent that I had accumulated post-SE.

Also overall: I was in a way very.. disappointed with Stream Entry, and with 2nd Path if I did get that. Experience just seemed so similar once the afterglow wore off. The largest differences only had to do with when I was meditating, in the form of more concentration and less aversion, but daily life was.. much the same. I expected to just naturally be happier for no reason, for everything to be 'brighter'.

Hopefully my ramblings can be a useful resource to those who have just gotten Stream Entry, as it can be a pretty confusing time.

Oh a few more things about the Fruitions... I played around with trying to get them through the doors, instead of insta-forcing them (e.g. by blinking). Some interesting ones were...

The feeling of going through a torus, but a few times a second I would change direction and change my position to mirror where I was. A visual example: I'd start from the right side of the torus, going counter-clockwise to the left. When I got to the left center, I'd shift to the right side again, going clockwise to the left. When I got to left center, I'd shift back, but start a little closer to the left this time. The starting points would gradually creep closer, until I was starting from almost the same place. Then the starting points merged, and a Fruition followed. This one happened a few occasions.

One I was realizing that I didn't feel decisions I made were no-self. I focused on this, and at one point I saw an image of myself. I realized it was me. Then I saw it moving its arms around slowly. I realized it moving its arms was just as no-self as me moving mine. Shortly after, the image turned to look at me, and then a Fruition followed. This one felt like it was a new cycle, maybe, but I didn't feel too much different afterwards. The image thing only happened once.

Others were accompanied by lots of flickering... like I would observe white light flickering on the extremities of my vision 3 times, then on a ring slightly closer for 3 times, then even closer 3 times, etc., and at some point it would get to what I thought was a Fruition.

In general, the huge rush of stuff just really confused me about cycles and intent and everything. It seems to have stabilized now, though. I think it was 13-14 days ago, and it got a bit more stable 3-4 days ago?