The 7 Stage Model

"Adya--my wife is and student and I've been a number of his satsangs--also doesn't emphasize suffering nearly to the degree he does the questions of what is True and what is Real." -mdaf30

I like Adyashanti's teaching and I appreciate his insistence upon the importance of Truth. On the other hand, as Adya himself admits, different people come to practice through different motivations.

My contention is that contentment trumps all other concerns. For example, the need to know the "Truth" loses its urgency when one is content to not know the Truth. When you are content with things as they are, you can leave your quest for Truth behind.

To be content is to know unconditional happiness. Unconditional happiness is freedom from suffering.

Unconditional happiness, by the way, does not mean invulnerability. Quite the contrary, in fact; unconditional happiness or freedom from suffering implies a constant willingness to be vulnerable, to feel pain, to call bllsht on yourself, to let it in again and again and again and again, and to accept what is happening in THIS moment. This explains why compassion is associated with awakening while indifference is associated with spiritual bypass and mental illness.

" I just can't relate to their inability to see the sequence of events. In my experience, we are talking about a sequential human development that is just as sure and invariable in sequence as the development from childhood to adulthood. If people do not experience it in this way, I can only speculate that it is because they 1) are not familiar with the maps, 2) haven't gotten there yet, or 3) are not predisposed to thinking in linear terms. No harm, no foul either way, but please don't be too quick to knock the maps! I reckon they have lasted this long for a reason."

Hmmm... Everything you say in post 72 seems like a reasonable enough summation of your experience,,, but at this point, it seems to veer into a potential closed mindedness which almost comes off as arrogant. I'm probably misperceiving. But this seems like a way of constructing things-- describing your situation, and thus outlining some speculative possibilities-- which is predisposed to closing you off to others. When people make such statements it only leaves room for people to agree with them, or disagree. That seems unfortunate and unnecessary. Are these truly the only three possibilities you see? The third possibility is perhaps a good contender... a bit more generous than options 1 and 2!

Hi Jake,

I don't mean to sound arrogant, and your point is well taken. What I'm saying is that we are dealing with human development, which is notoriously sequential and predictable. Although one may quibble with certain fine details of Piaget's model of childhood development, for example, few would deny the general model. The fact that many or most children do not recognize the sequence of events as it unfolds or even on hindsight does not negate the validity of the model or its usefulness in understanding and guiding children as they move through the predictable sequence of events.

edited for clarity and spelling

oh yes, I see that very clearly. What I wonder is exactly how well that pattern holds in post-conventional and spiritual development. I guess that's the heart of my point. I'm not sure it's so cut and dried in those dimensions; time will tell (probably a few hundred years!)

Continuing my response to Jake from post 77:

If an otherwise advanced yogi does not report the revolution in the emotional life that is expected at stage six, we might conclude that:

1) they haven't gotten there yet.
2) such a revolution in the emotional life is not an inevitable part of awakening
3) something else that I have not yet considered

I would argue that this particular transformation, entailing as it does the end of anger, anxiety, and resentment is so desirable that any definition of enlightenment that does not include it is flawed.

I might also point out that every time someone does come to the end of anger, the model is validated.

The main problem with the end of conceit, self-referencing, self-contraction, the "I"-thought, etc, by whatever name, is not that it is not a legitimate stage with a broad consensus; after all, what sage has not mentioned it as the essential point? The problem is one of ambiguity of language. My first law of mapping is that everything looks like everything else. Every intermediate yogi can see that there is no self. But that is not the same as seeing no-self from the point of view of the 5th stage, which is not the same as seeing it from the point of view of the 7th. The maddening reality is that only the 7th stage yogi really knows what aspect of self-referencing disappears at the 7th stage. This catch22 is built into the process all along the way. Similarly, the 5th stage yogi who has experienced a marked reduction in attachment to emotions knows that the reduction of emotions spoken of by the 3rd stage yogi is a pale version of the same, but cannot yet conceive of what it would be like to see through emotions completely in each moment, which is by definition the 6th stage.

Does this ambiguity make the models more trouble than they are worth? Not for a moment! The models keep us from settling for less then our full potential.

"Assuming that you find the end of conceit and permanent emotional grounding in the brahmaviharas useful, wouldn't it make sense to provide (as an upaya) a conceptual map and a pedagogical framework?" -OwenBecker

!!!

""As far as later stages, I read about lots of models - none of them proved to be accurate in even the slightest way..." -Chelek

I hear this a lot. It's not my experience, though. For me, the Buddhist maps have been uncannily accurate in predicting the sequence of events. Even when I doubted them, denied them, or railed against them, they eventually turned out to be right. Me: wrong. Maps: right. What can I say?"

One thing I can say is that the rest of that quote was "- as the only thing they did was create a concept around a decidedly non-conceptual experience. "

If your expectations have been met then that's great. I think we have different maps in mind - in any case I will stay with the 8 fold path and the 4 noble truths - they seem to be quite durable and have had significant road testing.

Hi Chuck,

As I wrote in an earlier post, for me contentment trumps all other concerns. When one is content with things as they are... well, then one is content. When that happens, it doesn't matter what anybody else's maps are or even your own. If contentment wears off, you get back to work. Either way, I think you and I agree that there are no ultimate conclusions to be drawn; to draw an ultimate conclusion would be to inhabit an idea. And that would never lead to contentment.

"I would argue that this particular transformation, entailing as it does the end of anger, anxiety, and resentment is so desirable that any definition of enlightenment that does not include it is flawed.

I might also point out that every time someone does come to the end of anger, the model is validated.
-KF"

Man where was this guy two years ago when I was making these same kinds of points? Oh yeah he was the guy arguing against this!

"Man where was this guy two years ago when I was making these same kinds of points? Oh yeah he was the guy arguing against this!"

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
-Emerson



(edit for minor quote correction)

Hobgoblins seem to be small, hairy little men who'”like their close relative, brownies,'”are often found within human dwellings, doing odd jobs around the house while the family is lost in sleep.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobgoblin

Well, that would be sweet, although I don't know that Kenneth is a hairy little man. (The vacuum is in the cabinet under the kitchen counter, oh yeah and don't eat more than one of the brownies.) I'm just pleased to see the addition of contentment to the end of aversion here. The process is actually more elusive of definition and description than it appears from available the terminology old and new. Its also a very slow and subtle set of transitions, reflecting back it can be difficult to determine when a given form of agitation or anxiety, already very subtle in nature, has slipped entirely away, particularly when slight momentary tensions have no relation to self perceptions or self conceptions. All the more so with anything akin to a subtle 'I' conceit.

In certain kinds of situational or historical irony, a factual truth is highlighted by some person's complete ignorance of it or his belief in the opposite of it. However, this state of affairs does not occur by human design. In some religious contexts, such situations have been seen as the deliberate work of Divine Providence to emphasize truths and to taunt humans for not being aware of them when they could easily have been enlightened (this is similar to human use of irony). Such ironies are often more evident, or more striking, when viewed retrospectively in the light of later developments which make the truth of past situations obvious to all.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony

Irony, I'm inclined to think samsara is thoroughly permeated with it and that there is nothing whatsoever personal about this.

As always it is more straightforward to describe nibbana (the ending of all unsatisfactoriness, stress and suffering) in terms of negations than it is to attempt positive assertions.

Snp 5.9 PTS: Sn 1088-1091
Todeyya-manava-puccha: Todeyya's Questions
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

So '” what's it like, being emancipated, anyway?

[Todeyya:]
One in whom there dwell no sensualities; one in whom no craving is found; one who has crossed over perplexity '” his emancipation: what is it like?

[The Buddha:]
One in whom there dwell no sensualities; one in whom no craving is found; one who has crossed over perplexity '” his emancipation is not other than that.

[Todeyya:]
Is he without desire, or desiring? Discerning or still acquiring discernment? Describe the sage to me, Sakyan with the all-around eye, so that I may recognize what he is like.

[The Buddha:]
He's without desire, not desiring; discerning, not still acquiring discernment. Recognize the sage, Todeyya, as having nothing, unentangled in sensuality & becoming.

"When one is content with things as they are... well, then one is content. When that happens, it doesn't matter what anybody else's maps are or even your own. If contentment wears off, you get back to work."

Hi Kenneth,
Can't disagree with that. Seems like a reasonable model - developing into a skill - as once you start putting it into action the results would probably be noticeable pretty early on. Perhaps some tips on how to recognize discontentment and to work with it could be useful. You could break that out into some different aspects like how you live, speak, approach any experience, that sort of thing

"Hi Kenneth,
Can't disagree with that. Seems like a reasonable model - developing into a skill - as once you start putting it into action the results would probably be noticeable pretty early on. Perhaps some tips on how to recognize discontentment and to work with it could be useful. You could break that out into some different aspects like how you live, speak, approach any experience, that sort of thing "

Speaking for myself and my own practice, I like to come from this perspective: The degree to which one is continuously aware of and in full acceptance of of the sensations experienced through the six sense doors, to that degree one is awake. I can always spot lack of acceptance of what is through the resistance I experience in my body. That resistance is ALWAYS equal to my level of suffering.

Does "discontentment" equal "resistance?" Again, there is too much variation in terminology for some of this to be useful.

"
Does "discontentment" equal "resistance?" Again, there is too much variation in terminology for some of this to be useful.

"

Discontentment is caused by resistance methinks. When I don't accept my experience as it is in this moment, it hurts.

39. "Potthapàda, there are three kinds of commonly assumed self: material, mind-made, and formless. The first has form, is made up of the four elements, and is nourished by solid food. The second has form, is made by the mind, and has all its limbs and organs complete and perfect. The third is without form, and is made up of consciousness only.

40-42. "Now I teach a doctrine, Potthapàda, that leads to the abandoning of the mistaken assumptions about all three of these assumed selves. If you follow this doctrine, unwholesome mental states disappear and the states which tend to purification increase; and one realizes and remains in the full perfection and purity of wisdom here and now.

[196] "Now it might be, Potthapàda, that you think even if one's unwholesome mental states disappear and the states which tend to purification increase; and one realizes and remains in the full perfection and purity of wisdom here and now, that one might continue to be unhappy. But, Potthapàda, that would be an inaccurate judgment. When such conditions are fulfilled, then there will only be joy and happiness, tranquility, continual mindfulness and clear awareness - and that is a happy state." The Buddha

Potthapada sutta
www.leighb.com/dn9.htm#jhanas

So resistance = discontentment = pain (i.e.; "it hurts")?

Sorry to be so sticky about this but unless the terms are defined it becomes difficult to follow what's being said.

(Now I get why Daniel Ingram used to absolutely insist on the proper and thorough definitions of terms. Otherwise the discussion is a moving target.)

"
So resistance = discontentment = pain (i.e.; "it hurts")?

Sorry to be so sticky about this but unless the terms are defined it becomes difficult to follow what's being said.

(Now I get why Daniel Ingram used to absolutely insist on the proper and thorough definitions of terms. Otherwise the discussion is a moving target.)"

I think Owen might be using "it hurts" not in the way most people use it although you can still say that and it is about what he means. If what he is describing is what I experience, it is more like "unsatisfactory mental tension", where the mind is holding a certain pattern of sensations in a certain way, with dullness, craving or aversion. Mental proliferation and story churning may result. This "holding" can result in varying degrees of mental tension. Right, Owen?

"It hurts" conveys a more gross type of physical pain to most people, me thinks. I think dukkha or a "bummer" is what results. And that word, dukkha, has caused its own confusion:

I like what Leigh Brasington has to say about translating dukkha as "bummer": www.leighb.com/bummer.htm

"39. "Potthapàda, there are three kinds of commonly assumed self: material, mind-made, and formless. The first has form, is made up of the four elements, and is nourished by solid food. The second has form, is made by the mind, and has all its limbs and organs complete and perfect. The third is without form, and is made up of consciousness only.

40-42. "Now I teach a doctrine, Potthapàda, that leads to the abandoning of the mistaken assumptions about all three of these assumed selves. If you follow this doctrine, unwholesome mental states disappear and the states which tend to purification increase; and one realizes and remains in the full perfection and purity of wisdom here and now.

[196] "Now it might be, Potthapàda, that you think even if one's unwholesome mental states disappear and the states which tend to purification increase; and one realizes and remains in the full perfection and purity of wisdom here and now, that one might continue to be unhappy. But, Potthapàda, that would be an inaccurate judgment. When such conditions are fulfilled, then there will only be joy and happiness, tranquility, continual mindfulness and clear awareness - and that is a happy state." The Buddha

Potthapada sutta
www.leighb.com/dn9.htm#jhanas "

that's lovely, it resonates with how I've been approaching practice lately. I'll have to take a closer look at the sutta

Yeah, unsatisfactory tension works. Bummer, problem, suffering, dukkha pick your favorite. Dudes, for me it's simple. When I resist, it sucks. When I don't, it rocks.

Ok, so is everybody comfy with the lexicon?

We'd be better off using contemporary terminology in almost every case, yes.

"I would argue that this particular transformation, entailing as it does the end of anger, anxiety, and resentment is so desirable that any definition of enlightenment that does not include it is flawed. I might also point out that every time someone does come to the end of anger, the model is validated." -KF

"Man where was this guy two years ago when I was making these same kinds of points? Oh yeah he was the guy arguing against this!" -triplethink

You're right, Nathan. This is one of the things I talk about in the video; I did not believe it was possible to stop getting angry until I stopped getting angry. This change in my practice and in my world happened just four months ago, in September last year. Before that, I was the one "leading the charge" against what I considered to be irresponsible and specious claims.

I am the kind of person who doesn't believe something just because someone else says it or writes about it; I have to see for myself.

I saw for myself, and I have now amended the map to include my new understanding. That is what this thread is about, what the 7 stage model is about; I was wrong, my teaching was incomplete, and I would like to present what I now believe is a more accurate picture of what can be expected from this practice.

The remarkable thing is that even before anger went away, the changes I had experienced in my own life as a result of this practice were so profound that I had dedicated my life to teaching dharma so that others could benefit too. What can I say now? It's even better than I thought.

""Assuming that you find the end of conceit and permanent emotional grounding in the brahmaviharas useful, wouldn't it make sense to provide (as an upaya) a conceptual map and a pedagogical framework?" -OwenBecker

!!!"

I hate to basically quote myself, but I'd like to discuss this a bit further.

I think it would be clearer to refer to the 7 stage model as the hybrid model. It resolves the major problems and combines the most tested developmental features of the 10 fetters and the technical model. And that's all we are really trying to map here folks, just the developmental progress of enlightenment as talked about in the suttas.

It should also be stated that the end goal of this is not AF. After working on this for some time now I've come to this conclusion: while I think it's probably possible to end all affective emotional charge in the body I don't believe it is either desirable or particularly compassionate to do so. While I won't go as far as the old Mahayana polemics about Paccekabuddhas, I will say don't want to loose the ability to feel the pain of others. It might be what other people want to do and seriously, I wish them all well, but the development described in the pali cannon is much more what this yogi would like to actualize.

I've got a few questions that I'd like to see get discussed if possible.

1. Do anyone here believe that the developmental process can be extended to the point where the emotional reality is permanently grounded in brahmaviharas and the conceit of a self is ended?

2. Is the hybrid map a good one for providing an overview of this territory?

hi Owen!

Those are great questions for clarifying this conversation.

1) Yes, I've always assumed based on even my earliest experiences that radical transformations such as these are entirely possible for humans.

2) It seems workable enough.

The only thing I would add as an outsider is that I think there are multiple possibilities of such profound transformations at deeper levels of practice, and I wouldn't be so quick to nail it all down in a single model, especially as it seems that the way we condition ourselves through models/techniques and teir associated attitudes prior to the deeper transformations seems to continue after the transformation, coloring it.

(con't)