Genpe Roshi's resignation, moralism, responsibility, and growing up

I don't know the details of the situation. But assuming he and his lover were consenting then the suffering was caused by the interaction of 1)jealusy 2)monogamy 3)polyamory--- not "unethical shadow behavior". As monogamy is designed to reject polyamory and preserve jealousy and possessiveness I just think it's worth taking a look at objectively. Hopefully it isn't necessary to add that I don't care what others choose. Nathan's spontaneous renunciation, Lama Ole Nydhal's open (and apparently functional) polyamory, Kenneth's monogamy. Whatever! It's just worth looking at what we're using our social arrangements to accomplish, and in that light it's meaningful to regard rules and roles as the para-human entities with their own self-preservation in "mind" that they are since as you point out we aren't going to be free of institutions any time soon... we may as well have good ones!

@Mark (it is Mark right?)-- thanks for weighing in as a practicing psychotherapist Mark. I am on that career path (with a ways to go) and I unequivocally feel that the two cases are very different. Not to say that some people go to a Zen preist-- or become one-- for reasons that shouldn't be examined psychotherapeutically. Clearly they do.

Hi Jake,

I see your point - but in the case of a relationship, it's the institution of "society" which is at stakes here, with "stable relationship" as the office/building block/people-shaped hole. That's the biggest, most inert, most established one I can think of, actually. It's the one which domesticated the human species for its purposes in the first place.

Sure, taking a good hard look at the assumptions behind "stable relationships are a good idea" is powerful practice. But that doesn't really explain why there is a difference, in individual human terms, between "Florian cheats on his wife" and "Rev Florian cheats on his wife". The "Rev" is not a human being, it's just a convention in a larger context of conventions, and yet rather more human beings suffer if it's present in the situation. That's funny, I think, but not in the "haha" sense. How does the purely conventional "Rev" get its power to hurt all these people under these circumstances?

Genpo acknowledges this: "I ... will still be available for people who wish to continue studying with me as just an ordinary human being who is working on his own shadows and deeply rooted patterns." JUST AN ORDINARY HUMAN BEING. As if he'd been some extraordinary human being before, when all that changed were the conventions of organizational position and address in polite speech? What's so extraordinary about that?

There is something much weirder going on here than just "monogamy leads to jealousy" and other issues of what people do with each other in the privacy of their bedrooms.

Cheers,
Florian

(edit: spelling)

Damn that's cold . So screw his wife and how she feels, huh? He lied and cheated. He was duplicitous. Plus he was ousted in 1990 from the center he was teacher at because he abused his power sexually. It's a pattern of behavior. It can be viewed as he has a strong libido...no big deal. Or it can be used that he uses the trust people play in him, which is part of his position, and in some cases (RIchard Baker) insisted upon. This isn't some guy walking around saying "I'm just a simple monk.' He's got a ginormous ego.

Genpo statement should be read to mean that he's dropping the conventions of buddhism to only teach the big mind technique which he developed and charges for. Seems a move from religion to self help or new age bookshelf.

We could all wear badges that declare our sexual and relationship values to everyone else. That would end all the suspense, though, and no doubt much of the fun.

What's Brad Warner saying about this?

Special Announcement
The White Plum Asanga Board of Directors has accepted the resignation of Genpo Merzel from White Plum Asanga membership as well as an Elder of the White Plum. This resignation is a result of his recent disclosures regarding sexual misconduct with several of his students. Please see the Big Mind website for their statement. On behalf of the White Plum organization, I extend our support for Genpo's efforts in recovery and treatment and to the teachers and members of the Kanzeon Sangha in their efforts in healing and realigning their communities. --- Roshi Gerry Shishin Wick, President, WPA

Usually the best approach to these things is to grab some popcorn and sit back and watch. The truth is usually revealled, but it takes a while.

But as a general rule, if you are a CEO, zen priest, or therapist, it's best not to shag your employees, sanga, or clients. You should probably shag folks at your gym, local mall, or neighborhood bar -- but they probably won't be as impressed that you are a CEO, zen priest, or therapist. They'll probably think you're just some average person. Hmm, that suggests something, doesn't it?

"I don't know the details of the situation. But assuming he and his lover were consenting then the suffering was caused by the interaction of 1)jealusy 2)monogamy 3)polyamory--- not 'unethical shadow behavior'." -Jake

Isn't something important being left out here? I doubt Genpo's wife and spiritual community are upset about the affair because they object to polyamory or multiple sexual relationships in general. What they probably feel (if I can speculate) is deceived. Again, we don't know the details of what happened. But I imagine the reason this is a big deal is because it somehow called Genpo's integrity into question. He was probably speaking against the very thing he was doing. This is a pattern we see all the time with spiritual leaders. And this, I think, is unethical.

Any man (or woman, for that matter -- I can only speak as a man) knows that sexual/romantic attraction is not something one may simply choose to turn on or off. And therefore, one may have intense romantic feelings of attraction to more than one person at a time. This reality doesn't jive with social conventions. But, I think each of us has a responsibility to the social conventions we subscribe to at any given time. Not that these conventions can't be broken, as we can opt out at any time. But other people are involved, and they can be deeply hurt if don't live and speak from a place of truth.

In short, if Genpo and his wife agreed to be faithful to one another, and then he was sexually active with another, and lied about it (directly or by omission), than he was lacking integrity. It isn't entirely inappropriate to call this "shadow behavior" if it was indeed something he had disowned publically.

There are a lot of assumptions in what I just wrote, so I could be off base. Thoughts?

"In short, if Genpo and his wife agreed to be faithful to one another, and then he was sexually active with another, and lied about it (directly or by omission), than he was lacking integrity." -awouldbehipster

The fact that Genpo did something wrong seems to be the one thing everyone agrees on. The interesting question for me is not whether Genpo did anything wrong (he has clearly acknowledged that he did), but rather what the rest of us should do about it. I submit that the knee-jerk reaction to wrongdoing, i.e., "the bstrd should be fired," is not the most mature or necessarily the most appropriate response. The fact that this is not Genpo's first time in such a scandal is relevant primarily because it leaves little room for those who were hurt to feign surprise. This is part of what I mean about growing up; if you choose to do business with a wolf, knowing in advance that he is a wolf, any claim that you were deceived rings hollow; this hearkens back to Jake's point about the games we play with ourselves in order to avoid taking responsibility for our own decisions:

"First I can put you up on a pedestal (resenting you for being superior to me even as I aspire to become so perfect), next I revel in the schadenfreude when you inevitably do something which contradicts my ideal projection. yay! now I can project my anti-ideal on you, and it's even more satisfying since you were so superior to me before and i always secretly suspected you couldn't really be so perfect.... aggggghhhh!" -jhsaintonge

It seems that not only Genpo's wife but his students as well believed that they were getting something from the relationship that made it worth the risk. Yes, he was a known adulterer, and they chose to continue the relationship anyway. This is a choice. But when you go into a risky situation understanding the risks, how do you complain when you lose the bet?

Because you bet once, why do you need to keep betting? I bet on the superbowl in 1997 and lost. I didn't complain about it and I didn't bet on it this year. Telling someone to go away is a choice also. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. Fool me three times go **** yourself.

"Telling someone to go away is a choice also." -gsteinb

I think I understand what you mean, Gary. Perhaps Genpo's sangha told him to go away. Perhaps they had given him a second chance and he had blown it again. That is fair. And that, I believe, can be done without any moralistic judgment whatsoever. It's a simple equation: "fool me once, I'll give you another chance. Fool me twice and you are fired." I don't know if this is what happened with Genpo, I am just presenting an alternative possibility.

Notice that with this scenario the needs of the congregation are met, i.e., they can cut their losses and find a teacher who better embodies their values, and yet we have sidestepped the whole issue of projection, self-riteous indignation, feigned surprise at having been deceived, etc. It is a simple contract. Actions have consequences. Here are the rules. Violate the rules, you're out. This, I submit, is a healthy and mature way to approach these situations.

When the roles and responsibilities of both teacher and student are clearly defined and it is understood that actions have consequences, things get simpler. One can establish guidelines, even clear rules for behavior. Example:

Rule for teacher: don't seduce students.
Rule for students: don't seduce teacher.
Rule for everyone: relationship ends if you break the rules.

I like the simple reciprocity of this. It empowers everyone by insisting that they take responsibility for their own actions and makes moral outrage irrelevant.

Hi Kenneth,

I think I see where you're coming from, and I'm pretty sure that I agree (being careful here not to assume too much).

It's one thing to be disappointed with one's teacher for not living up to their expectations, leading to termination of their "employment" or vocation. That, to me, is perfectly normal, healthy, and justifiable.

Believing that this person was somehow beyond all of that, only to find out that he wasn't... that brings a whole other kind of disappointment and regret, almost like another category of experience.

The maturity needed here is to understand human nature as best we can. This not only changes the quality of our response to events like this, but also helps us set appropriate expectations to begin with. Yeah?

Growing up entails both accepting things as they are, as well as taking responsibility for living up to our agreements with others.

Jackson

Much good discussion here. I would add that how we understand all of these thorny sexual issues has been infused with some very postmodern philosophical ideas around power, men, women, and sex. I'm not saying all these ideas are all incorrect necessarily, but as one fish swimming in our particular cultural waters I feel that they are often problematic and certainly ripe for a bit of deconstruction.

IMO the most problematic, unquestioned ones are about "power"--the idea that it is some kind of omnipresent force that rules and defines all heterosexual relationships, particularly in communities or workplaces. This is important because it is with many of our ideas about "power" that we push the perhaps flawed human choice onto the platform for vilification (i.e., we assume there must have been seducation, coercion, abuse, deception of the non-garden-variety-type, etc.).

If you'd like to dig into this cultural meme, I highly recommend Daphe Patai's Heterophobia.

www.amazon.com/Heterophobia-Sexual-Haras...minism/dp/0847689883

Maybe I am being overly pessimistic, but every time I see a Dharma leader wrapped in his/her own ego/pathos/issues I can't help but wonder, "If this stuff is supposed to end suffering, why the heck is THAT guy suffering like that if he's supposed to be so good at it?"

I keep thinking, I sit on the cushion and I suffer a little less. So. If I keep going, keep at this, it will bring a cessation or at least a serious diminishment of my suffering. That's why I play. I know other's may have loftier goals, and I know I am not as hardcore as most here, at DO and other groups, but that's why I STARTED doing this, why I keep doing it, to suffer less. Then I look at many teachers, yes, I know they are just frail humans as well, but whether Brad W. is wrapped in his own angst over his ego and affair or how Big Mind didn't save Roshi from his own stupidity I ask myself, "Why the hell am I sitting everyday?"

Am I missing something? Am I not advanced enough? Why do we put so much time/effort/mindfulness into this if not to suffer less?
Sorry, throwing some of my own angst in the mix, I know, but I ALWAYS wonder this when I see this kind of story. I get back on the cushion anyway but it sticks with me. I'd really be curious of other's thoughts on that.

"Maybe I am being overly pessimistic, but every time I see a Dharma leader wrapped in his/her own ego/pathos/issues I can't help but wonder, "If this stuff is supposed to end suffering, why the heck is THAT guy suffering like that if he's supposed to be so good at it?"

I keep thinking, I sit on the cushion and I suffer a little less. So. If I keep going, keep at this, it will bring a cessation or at least a serious diminishment of my suffering. That's why I play. I know other's may have loftier goals, and I know I am not as hardcore as most here, at DO and other groups, but that's why I STARTED doing this, why I keep doing it, to suffer less. Then I look at many teachers, yes, I know they are just frail humans as well, but whether Brad W. is wrapped in his own angst over his ego and affair or how Big Mind didn't save Roshi from his own stupidity I ask myself, "Why the hell am I sitting everyday?"

Am I missing something? Am I not advanced enough? Why do we put so much time/effort/mindfulness into this if not to suffer less?
Sorry, throwing some of my own angst in the mix, I know, but I ALWAYS wonder this when I see this kind of story. I get back on the cushion anyway but it sticks with me. I'd really be curious of other's thoughts on that."

I'm suffering a profound amount less. Fact!

Regarding postmodern ideas about "power": I don't know; I live in Switzerland, in Europe. The moral climate seems to be different over here; we are only beginning to emulate what you have been doing for years over across the Atlantic, and uptight protestantism is not (yet) the dominant force.

Whatever our views on power may be, the point is that there is obviously a power gradient, a difference in power, within a hierarchy. That's what makes it a hierarchy. So those higher up have more "power", i.e. influence of whatever kind the hierarchy is built on. This gradient can be exploited to get what one wants, including sexual favours.

I like Kenneth's list, and I'd like flesh it out a bit, as it were.

"Don't seduce..." is a bit general, and a bit late in the development of what we'd like to avoid in the first place. Being aware/mindful of awkward situations goes a long way towards not even going there. One big indicator is personal boundaries being violated, limits overstepped. This can happen in group situations just as easily as in one-on-one interviews. So it starts with "we're aware that the violation of limits can happen, and we won't tolerate it when it does", and ends with "don't seduce teachers/students".

This should not be translated into "don't touch anybody, don't look at anybody" - human community is built in a large part on some idea of physical closeness. So some careful thought and clear announcement should be invested regarding what is appropriate closeness. Also, romantic relationships between teachers and students should have their place, but transparency must be valued over privacy in this case.

There should be someone trusted who can be contacted in case of trouble, who will handle the situation. This is where specialist help is really, really useful.

Cheers,
Florian

Good question, Kittydew.

Me, I want to find out, that's why I sit and do other practices. I want to stop fooling myself over reasons why I might be suffering, and instead find out why I'm suffering.

If people suffer from stupid mistakes (mine and other peoples' mistakes - and it doesn't matter at all if it's me or HH the DL or some venerable Ajahn or Roshi being a stupid git - there is only suffering, not holy suffering vs. profane suffering), well, I'd say there is more work to be done, more clarity to be gained, more fooling myself to be debunked. Now at the level I'm referring to, here, the only person who can do this is me. That's why I practice. It's got nothing to do with the hustle and bustle of sangha functionaries anywhere. This is utterly personal, between me and suffering.

And in day-to-day human interaction, this kind of investigation (and its results) is still useful, but can't replace a dedication to being nice, avoiding harmful crap, and generally trying to increase the amount of good things being done, and being circumspect about it. You know, giving them a good performance, as an artist friend of mine puts it.

BTW, being aware of these doubts, by noting them, for example, is great practice towards the end of suffering.

Cheers,
Florian

"We agree to avoid creating harm through sexuality and to avoid sexual exploitation or relationships of a sexual manner that are outside of the bounds of the relationship commitments we have made to another or that involve another who has made vows to another. Teachers with vows of celibacy will live according to their vows. Teachers in committed relationships will honor their vows and refrain from adultery. All teachers agree not to use their teaching role to exploit their authority and position in order to assume a sexual relationship with a student.

Because several single teachers in our community have developed partnerships and marriages with former students, we acknowledge that such a healthy relationship can be possible, but that great care and sensitivity are needed. We agree that in this case the following guidelines are crucial.

a) A sexual relationship is never appropriate between teachers and students.
b) During retreats or formal teaching, any intimation of future student-teacher romantic or sexual relationship is inappropriate.
c) If interest in a genuine and committed relationship develops over time between a single teacher and a student, the student-teacher relationship must clearly and consciously have ended before any further development toward a romantic relationship. Such a relationship must be approached with restraint and sensitivity '“ in no case should it occur immediately after retreat. A minimum time period of three months or longer from the last formal teaching between them, and a clear understanding from both parties that the student-teacher relationship has ended must be coupled with a conscious commitment to enter into a relationship that brings no harm to either party." - Spirit Rock Teacher Code of Ethics

I thought it would be interesting to post a link to the Spirit Rock Teacher Code of Ethics, and show how they've decided to deal with these type of situations, since there are a lot of teachers in that community. And frankly, also because there are a lot less scandals in that community (which doesn't necessarily mean they're "healthy" in a social or pshychological sense, just that the results are different).

Original link: www.spiritrock.org/display.asp?pageid=20&catid=4

Relevant section to follow.

Vince,

I think the IMS code you posted is more than reasonable. In fact, I think the "3 month" period is quite generous when compared to the guidelines enforced by various psychological boards, which are stated in terms of years rather than months.

That brings up an interesting point, actually... I know that Jack Kornfield is a clinical psychologist, and that he does some of his work at Spirit Rock. I know that he's married and all, but if he wasn't I imagine he'd probably have to defer to whichever guidelines was more strict. Hmmm...

Jackson

A related Kornfield quotation found here:

Sex, lies and the Dharma
By George Tysh, The Buddhist Channel, Nov 5, 2008
(Originally published in Detroit Metro Times)


www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=70,7350,0,0,1,0


'In 1985, Buddhist teacher and psychotherapist Jack Kornfeld published the results of his interviews with Eastern (principally Buddhist and Hindu) spiritual leaders in Yoga Journal. Of the 54 teachers and gurus Kornfeld interviewed, 34 told him they had been sexually involved with students.'

" How does the purely conventional "Rev" get its power to hurt all these people under these circumstances?

"

@Florian and Kitty: great interaction and thanks for it. you guys just brought this around to the practice dimension and what we're all doing here in a beautiful way.

also @Florian r.e. your question from post 26: The purely conventional "rev"-- the term, the concept, the role-- *doesn't* have any power to hurt people-- does it? It's the way people (the congregation and the "rev" especially) relate to those rule/role structures as mechanisms for hiding from their own freedom that leads those same folks to suffer. That's really what I'm being so pesky about here I think this ties in with the "growing up" angle. One could take it as "cold" but it isn't intended that way, nor is Kenneth I think. I'm just trying to highlight another aspect of the dynamic besides the psychological. Because, Jackson, I think you make an excellent point in post 31 r.e. it's kind of BS for merzel to claim "shadow issues' on this one. And Kenneth you make a similar point solidly IMO in post 32. None of this excuses Merzel. But it looks like everyone else in the situation was involved in this whole mess! And that's exactly what I'm getting at. It seems more of a group dynamics issue than a psychological one.
Anyway... I'm in a cantankerous and contrary and provocative mood so I hope no one's been too upset by my posts! Just a bunch of jibber jabber and I probably should just take betawave's advice. Where *is* that popcorn?

"Good question, Kittydew.

Me, I want to find out, that's why I sit and do other practices. I want to stop fooling myself over reasons why I might be suffering, and instead find out why I'm suffering.

If people suffer from stupid mistakes (mine and other peoples' mistakes - and it doesn't matter at all if it's me or HH the DL or some venerable Ajahn or Roshi being a stupid git - there is only suffering, not holy suffering vs. profane suffering), well, I'd say there is more work to be done, more clarity to be gained, more fooling myself to be debunked. Now at the level I'm referring to, here, the only person who can do this is me. That's why I practice. It's got nothing to do with the hustle and bustle of sangha functionaries anywhere. This is utterly personal, between me and suffering.

And in day-to-day human interaction, this kind of investigation (and its results) is still useful, but can't replace a dedication to being nice, avoiding harmful crap, and generally trying to increase the amount of good things being done, and being circumspect about it. You know, giving them a good performance, as an artist friend of mine puts it.

BTW, being aware of these doubts, by noting them, for example, is great practice towards the end of suffering.

Cheers,
Florian"

Beautiful Florian, and a really valid point. I spend a lot more time on all these boards reading than I ever do posting, but this has nagged at me for a while and Roshi's situation seemed a good time to finally throw out a WTF...But your so right, this isn't about anyone else, it's about me, and if it's working for me, to fool myself less. Always appreciate your posts and thanks, that's just what I needed to hear. Ok, back to the darn cushion then.
Kitty

@Vince - Hey, that Spirit Rock code sounds really good - seems to be modelled along the same lines as the stuff we're doing in our Judo club

@Jake - the title seems to have quite a bit of power. Kitty's concern expresses this, doesn't it? If we were truly "grown up", would we really need all the magic hats and fancy titles and other insignia of power? Would we need to rely on myths and wishful thinking regarding these insignia?

@Kitty - yeah, thanks for your post, it brought it back to earth for me. Don't be too hesitant to throw out the occasional WTF.

Cheers,
Florian

@ Florian: "seems" yes, that's just it! And of course we as a society and culture have a way to go in "growing up" around this stuff. And it sounds like your Judo club and Spirit Rock are taking steps in that direction. Good on ya

Jackson,

Well, in the case of Jack, I'm pretty sure that when he's teaching dharma he isn't officially wearing the psychologist hat, and so the guidelines are probably different depending on the context. He also quit practicing privately many years ago.

-Vince