The Benefits of Noting

Hi all,

I am writing up another article for the Hamilton Project blog on the benefits of noting and noting vs not noting. I would love to know what others think of noting here at KFD where it is very much practiced.

Please share your view on noting and why it is or isn't beneficial for you.

What are the benefits?

What are the disadvantages?

What do you think noting does for you?

If you are just aware of phenomena versus aware of phenomena and mentally or verbally noting it, what is the difference for you?

Also, for those of you verbalizing the noting as Kenneth teaches these days, what is the big difference between noting mentally vs noting verbally out loud?

Why is noting the bees knees? Is it the bees knees? Why is noting better than not noting or viceversa?

Edited to say: Please note, any responses here may be used in the article. I can keep in anonymous for those who want to. i probably will just include the quote without the citing. But if you want me to cite you just mention it..

Much metta,

Nick

For me, the single most important benefit of noting practice is that it helps to keep one's attention in present experiencing. Insight practice must happen with the mind settled in the here and now. Thinking about the past or future, or getting caught up in imagining or fantasizing, are some of the greatest threats to progress on the path leading to awakening. Simply keeping track of what is happening "now" in each moment is one of the simplest ways to keep the mind from wandering into distraction, which is more than half the battle.

The disadvantages to noting are usually based on both misunderstandings and misapplications of technique. Sometimes instead of simply noting what is occurring in the present moment, practitioners will go on the hunt for phenomena they think they are supposed to see. This isn't always bad. In the context of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, it's appropriate to remember to notice body sensations, feelings, mind objects, consciousness, etc. But in my opinion, going on the hunt for "non-duality" or even the "sense of self" is usually counterproductive. If one wants to locate a sense of ego-grasping, it's often better to notice where suffering is occurring in the mind and body, and then to inquire into why. Suffering is a more useful object of noting than is a "self-sense", IMHO. (I know that many experienced practitioners will disagree with me on this point.)

Thanks for reading my responses. Best of luck on your post!

Jackson

Hey Nick,

Put simply, for me at least, noting has been the bees knees because it has allowed me to, with certainty, make use out of intense suffering and transmute it into progress. For example, instead of just walking around stewing in feelings of fear, boredom, desire, annoyance, etc. I can note those and know that every note is one step closer to the goal.

It may not may not make it any easier at the moment (though sometimes it does), but paired with a burning intention to get it done, it can be quite the useful tool for progress.

That's my quickie vouch for the technique, at least.

(btw, tons of thanks for all of your contributions here and at the Hamilton Project, Nick!)

(also, feel free to use the above text but please when citing just use my name Chris rather than Chris_TK as I'm probably going to be changing it soon to make it slightly less linkable to my full name. hope that's ok and thanks ^_^)

Thanks Jackson and Chris,

Keep em coming yogis! For the benefit of others!!!!

I've been whispering detailed notes since last summer now and it really helps my mind from wandering and to take some time to soak into (Shinzen lingo) each experience, instead of superficially noting it. Since following Kenneths advice of using detailed notes (in stead of the more generic ones I used before), I'm seeing more detail of what is going on. For me this is especially so for emotional feelings and talk thought. I get to be more honest with myself, hiding less from my conscious awareness without deliberately going into analysing, it's just becoming a habit from moment to moment. By naming a feeling, it's being noted more clearly. When it's a negative feeling I'm more accepting and less ashamed of it than before, because I can't deny it's actually there... for a moment or longer.

It simply happened to be a text I am reading lately so in another thread about Maha Boowa containing questions about citta I referred those interested to the conceptions of citta found in the sutta pitaka as surveyed within the text of "The Mind in Early Buddhism". Presentations pertinent to the other thread and which may also be useful to some here in relation to the overall context of noting practice are found mainly in
chapter 3
www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/mind/03_chap3.htm
chapter 4
www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/mind/04_chap4.htm
and chapter 5.
www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/mind/05_chap5.htm

It can be observed in the above survey that in the Buddha's discourses (or if some would prefer to see it simply as the doctrines were understood in early buddhist conceptions) the application of mindfulness to the four frames of reference serves as a support for noting not only the three characteristics (or in other words temporality, flux, unsatisfactoriness, stress, suffering and the absence of any lasting essence or core), but also for noting the causes of dukkha in the mind dependent upon sensuality, ill will and other unwholesome states and for noting the supports culminating in the cessation of dukkha in the abandonment of unwholesome states and in the development of wholesome states productive of disillusionment, disenchantment, relinquishment, renunciation and ultimately of unbinding or release.

cont ->

One aspect of this is that in the early buddhist conception a sense of shame is seen as useful as a preventative to the arising of and persistence of unwholesome states and an absence of shame is also desirable as found in the supportive qualities of joy, peace, calm, collectedness, blamelessness and harmlessness.

Appropriate mindful attention to the four frames of reference is invaluable. On this basis mindfulness may be further directed to an examination of the nature of the casual and resultant kamma of unwholesome and wholesome mental qualities, thought, speech and action and ultimately directed to the complete ending of fundamental ignorance.

The book referred to above may provide numerous starting points for further interesting and beneficial research into the overall context of noting practice as it relates to the N8FP.

I just wanted to chime in and say that one of the main benefits of noting, for me, has been that it offers a way to practice that is mostly foolproof. Using the feedback mechanism of noting along with the instruction to investigate the four foundations of mindfulness really gives one a way to practice even in less than ideal situations.

A disadvantage is that the noting, the word or concept used, might get in the way of being directly experiencing phenomena.

jack

Benefits: it develops momentum in the early nanas and gives you a liferaft in the midst of the dukka nanas.
Disadvantages" is that it can be clumsy to note during the faster/nuanced parts of the A&P and Equanimity, so called "bare attention" or "awareness" seems appropriate.
That said, it seems like there is a kind of quicksand in Equanimity -- where you dwell in the qualities of that stage without realizing that it is becoming stagnant -- that noting helps with too.

I'm pretty sure noting is what got me out of the Dark Night!

The difference between aware vs noting is the act of labelling. Labelling with a word feels like a solid intentional and mental action. (There is another kind of noting where you objectify something and just mentally say "that", which is faster and can work if it seems like fast noting is helpful.) Just aware can range from a sense of watching (some small amount of intention) to a sense of "being" aware (essentially no intention).

The verbalizing/noting outloud method is something I rarely use for a whole sit. But sometimes a lack of progress tells me it is time for bootcamp and noting outloud for an hour feels like that kind of serious training.

Noting is the bees knees because it gives you feedback on how strong your practice is. When in doubt, note doubt, then keep on noting! If there is a fine sensitivity that is developed (sense of watching, sense of being aware) then I think it is debatible if not noting is better... I'm still gathering data points.

cont.

As a final note (ha ha), my favorite experience is when things become so immediate that it feels like I should be noting the noting... being careful not to get lazy, I note that and keep noting for a few minutes more... sometimes after a few minutes there is the sense that everything is occuring on it's own, both the arising of experience and the awareness of it. Good things usually happen.

Hope this helps!

Noting aloud was what finally helped me to understand what vipassana practice actually is. The way vipassana is sometimes taught in the United States, you're supposed to follow the breath and then just notice whatever comes into the foreground with enough force to distract you from the central object. That's simple enough, but because 90 percent of the dharma discussions are about psychological insights/working with your stuff on and off the cushion (or maybe these conversations veer into Zen/non-duality stuff), it's very easy to be unclear about what vipassana practice actually is.

I wonder how many "vipassana" meditators are just resting the mind in pleasant shamatha states, with no investigation of phenomena. That's what I did for a long time. Progress meant attaining to a very peaceful state with no thoughts. Well, the Buddha was pretty clear that this is a dead end.

I practiced non-noting based meditation techniques for over ten years while working with Western magickal systems and yoga, personally I've found that vipassana is, without a shadow of a doubt, the most efficient and precise technique for being present on a moment to moment basis, examining reality as it happens.

One of the only downsides I've experienced is that the technique is so simple that, for me at least, there was a period where I was trying to overcomplicate it for myself. It's something I've seen other yogi do too, particularly those from a non-Buddhist background, because you end up thinking "Surely it's not that simple, there just MUST be something complicated about this that I'm missing!" only to find that you're totally wrong.

I'll have a bit more of a think about the other questions here but these are my basic pro's and con's in the meantime.

Excellent idea here Nik, it's going to be a beauty of an article!

One other addition based on last night's sit... I kinda think that with verbal noting, most of the "meditation" occurs between the notes. In other words, it's not that the things that are noted are particularly the things that allow you to make progress. So much is going on between even noting at 1 per second or less. It's easy to get obsessed with deciding what should be noted in order to make progress, or looking for signs of the next stage, etc. But it's seems like just the context -- the paying attention during the whole process -- is part of the magic behind noting. The other part is no matter how much distraction or daydreaming is going on, you can always reconnect with your meditation by recognizing what is happening and noting it.

Bump for the benefit of noting and all the world's chronic dark nighters and budding yogis!

Keep em coming guys!

"I kinda think that with verbal noting, most of the "meditation" occurs between the notes. In other words, it's not that the things that are noted are particularly the things that allow you to make progress. So much is going on between even noting at 1 per second or less. It's easy to get obsessed with deciding what should be noted in order to make progress, or looking for signs of the next stage, etc."

That's exactly what I was thinking last night, I've been experimenting with verbal noting after having stuck to silent noting since I started vipassana, just being 'with' the sensations and naming them internally, and realized the same thing. I find it very difficult to get the same flow of noting going verbally but I can see how useful and precise it can be once we get into the groove with it.

RE: Verbalizing the noting technique...

Noting aloud in the presence of a teacher (in person, on the phone, or during video chat) is a way to demonstrate to the teacher that you know how to do the technique. If you can note out loud, you can note in your head. Pragmatic Dharma operates on the assumption that if the technique is done properly, results will follow. We could say that noting aloud to a teacher is a way of increasing inter-yogi reliability. That is, we can only know if a technique works for a large number of people if they're all actually practicing the same technique.

I personally haven't ever found noting aloud to be all that helpful to my practice. But, I think that starting out with verbalized noting may have helped me learn the noting technique more quickly. Therefore, I don't think it's necessary. It is, however, one of the many skillful ways to learn a powerful technique that is known to bring significant results.

"I personally haven't ever found noting aloud to be all that helpful to my practice. But, I think that starting out with verbalized noting may have helped me learn the noting technique more quickly. Therefore, I don't think it's necessary."-awouldbehipster

This misses the point. If a yogi were to note silently once per second silently, the benefits would be equal to the benefits of noting aloud. Practically speaking, though, noting silently once per second for more than a minute or two is not possible for most people because they forget and the mind wanders. So the time actually spent noting silently during a one-hour sitting is almost always a mere fraction of an hour.

Noting aloud is more effective than noting silently for precisely this reason; the feedback loop of hearing your own voice once per second is what keeps you on track. You don't forget to note because every time you fail to hear your own voice coming back at you, you awaken from your reverie: "What is wrong? Oh, yeah, I forgot to note." And you begin noting again. So you can spend the entire session productively, with no spacing out. This more efficient use of your precious practice time makes an enormous difference over a period of weeks, months and years.

There was a famous study comparing the results of visualizing shooting a basketball vs actually shooting it. Supposedly, those who merely visualized the activity improved at the same rate as those who actually tossed the ball at the hoop. But the key is that you really have to do the visualization; just sitting there daydreaming and occasionally remembering to visualize shooting baskets does not lead to improvement. Sitting there spacing out is wasted time and without a feedback loop you are almost certain to space out. Yes, noting silently works. But all things being equal, noting aloud is vastly more powerful than noting silently. The feedback loop makes all the difference.

OK, Kenneth. You think that noting aloud is vastly more powerful than noting silently. The fact that hearing your own voice during practice keeps you from spacing out is what makes it so. In this way it seems similar to the opinion of those who advocate practicing with eyes-open as opposed to eyes-closed. Eyes-open tends to result in fewer occasions of drifting off into space-out land. Eyes-closed makes it more likely to drift, or to fall asleep.

Need we endorse every skillful means available to prevent getting distracted? Or, is it fine to evaluate our practice and choose one of the myriad skill sets available for getting back on track? Because for me, practicing silently, and with my eyes closed, has yet to significantly interfere with my ability to stay with my experience during practice.

Also, I want to point out that I in no way said, "Here's the only reason why noting aloud is helpful," or even that, "Noting silently is better." I just wanted to share one way that I thought it was helpful, and then express my opinion about it from the perspective of my own personal practice. I know that it works very well for a lot of people.

Continued from above...

It seems in my own expericne, that noting and paying attention to the 3 C's of phenomena accomplish the same result. Although I would argue that noting seems to be much more effective for the pre-path mind which is a 'sticky" mess. At least post 4th, seeing the 3 C's in everything and anything is a breeze.

It's like the tendency to identify and react to phenomena and the object being reacted to are 2 strong magnets. They seem to get pulled together very quickly in the untrained mind. But with insight practice, either by noting or paying attention to one of the 3 C's, those two magnets are pulled apart briefly for as long as one notes, or pays attention to a characteristic.

When this is done, I believe the supposed physio-energetic development gets triggered and we move up through the nanas. The "I" eseentially steps out of the way. At each path moment, those magnets lose some of their pull and at 4th, that pull has lost most of its power. I wont say all, because im finding that although it is very very easy to separate the magnets, they sometimes clamp together to cause momentary mischief. But they are easily taken apart. My continued practice of letting go of tensions and watching for the drop away moment with whatever phenomenon has arisen has made those magnets more like fridge magnets....the clamping together seems to be getting less and less

I'm speaking from my own experience. My interpretations could be wrong of course.

Keep the convo going guys!

Awesome, this thread is starting to sprout wings.

I have been experimenting lately with switching awareness onto the different characteristics of whatever has arisen in the moment. This is all without noting mentally or verbally. When i focus the mind on observing and contemplating the impermanence characteristic, there is an obvious shift in the way the mind is observing the phenomena.

It's like the mind takes a step back and is able to observe the object much more objectively without the mind lunging onto it and identifying with it. Watching for the very moment a particular phenomenon will drop away (and everything that arises does drop away eventually), the mind seems to "unstick" or "take a step backwards" or some "space" is created between the object and the tendency to react to an object with craving or aversion etc.

The same thing occurs when I take the angle of paying attention to the way any phenomenon will arise and drop away without any help. So very out of "my" control. The anatta characteristic

When I note phenomena, the same process of "taking a step back" or creating a "space" between the reacting mind and the object so that there is a momentary dis-identification from the object occurs. When i continuously am paying attention and focused on exactly when things drop away or arise and drop away without help it seems to have the same effect as noting. I have no experience of noting verbally outloud, so i can't comment about that but I'm glad others are.

Good points Jackson, I agree that it'd be pretty much essential to note aloud with a teacher to show that you understand the technique. I can't actually think of any way in which one could misrepresent their current practice to a teacher if this were the case so, as you said, inter-yogi reliability is increased and the teacher will be able to direct the student more appropriately. I also agree with Kenneth though about it's usefulness in practice, particularly for those with no previous meditative experience, and that that feedback loop makes it very difficult to space out. Overall, my opinion is that there's room for both approaches and both are equally valid if performed correctly.

The speed of noting is something which I think is worth discussing here too, one of the things I found so interesting about Kenneth's approach was his suggestion to note verbally at one sensation per second. I came across vipassana through, like many people, Dan Ingram's outstanding MCTB but I thought, and continue to think, that his noting rate of up to around 60 sensations per second has the potential to discourage newcomers and, particularly when one doesn't have the benefit of a teacher, may cause a practitioner to develop bad habits. This isn't Daniel's fault obviously and I have a great deal of respect for his dedication to such high standards and accuracy, something which has been a massive influence on my own practice, but I think that it should be made clear to newcomers that starting with one sensation per second, verbally or silently, is the ideal way to begin and to develop a solid technique.

I'll post some more later, but for now my advice to anyone beginning vipassana would be this: How do you eat an elephant? : D

"It's like the tendency to identify and react to phenomena and the object being reacted to are 2 strong magnets. "

That's really interesting actually, I had been discussing noting the space between the observer and the observed a while ago with someone. Their opinion was that there was nothing to be noted in the space between, but I believed that it was possible to note the edges of the sensations which made up subject and object within that space and this is the same sort of thing I was trying to say. I can feel a sort of "pulling towards" of the attention if I just watch it happen, hard to put into words but the magnet idea works for me!

awouldbehipster said: "We could say that noting aloud to a teacher is a way of increasing inter-yogi reliability."

Kenneth's got me doing ping-pong noting in our Skype lessons. Now that everyone here is starting to talk to each other more on Socialeyes, perhaps those of us who get benefit from noting aloud could 'buddy up' and practice noting together.

Andy,

"Ping-pong" noting, eh? I'm guessing it works like this:

I note, than you note, than I note, than you note, etc.

Yeah? If so, that sounds kind of fun

Buddying up with others to do this exercise on Socialeyes is a good idea. Run with it.

Jackson