Are you suffering kundalini sydnrome?

Well, are you?

Noting helps.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini_syndrome#cite_note-90

Nick

Do you think that the awakening of kundalini lines up with the 4th nana of A&P?

Check this out from the link above::

"Based on his traumatic experiences, Gopi Krishna conveyed a twofold message of immense dread and great hopefulness around the awakening of Kundalini.

"The power, when aroused in a body not attuned to it with the help of various disciplines or not genetically mature for it, can lead to awful mental states, to almost every form of mental disorder, from hardly noticeable aberrations to the most horrible forms of insanity, to neurotic and paranoid states, to megalomania and, by causing tormenting pressure on reproductive organs, to an all-consuming thirst that is never assuaged." END OF QUOTE

That last line sounds like insight disease.

Dark night anyone?
Hehe

Nick

This is really interesting actually, I've been thinking how people encounter Dark Night pre-Path quite a bit and didn't make the connection with "kundalini syndrome" but I think you're on to something here. Kundalini awakening generally coincides with crossing the A&P which would inevitably lead one into the dukkha ñanas, regardless of tradition or background, so it makes sense, from a progress of insight point of view, that the experiences described by Gopi Krishna line up with crossing into DN territory. I remember reading about him in Robert Anton Wilson's "Prometheus Rising" where he described this as "chemicalization", a negative somatic experience, and made the connection to the concepts of the "abyss", dark night, the nigredo stages of alchemy and other traditions.

I practiced yogic and magickal techniques for years before finding vipassana and would say that, in my experience, the A&P and kundalini rising are part of the same stage, or at least that kundalini is a symptom of this stage. The problems that I can see with this is that people are encountering these ñana without adequate mapping, a real and practical conceptual framework of what's likely to occur after kundalini has done it's thing, or a solid technique with which to navigate skillfully into the next stage. This is one of the major breakthroughs, in my opinion, of the whole pragmatic dharma movement and one for which I will be eternally grateful.

Tommy

I've been wondering how kundalini-type pure mystics might fit into the whole map thing, if at all. I'd be interested in commentary on Donna Lee Gorrell's book (Perfect Madness).

"I practiced yogic and magickal techniques for years before finding vipassana and would say that, in my experience, the A&P and kundalini rising are part of the same stage, or at least that kundalini is a symptom of this stage."

Yes, I also think that the A&P event is basically the moment the Kundalini awakens. Which is however, as we all know, not the same as Stream entry. The moment of Stream entry would hence equate to the moment when the Kundalini for the first time breaks through the Sahasrar (crown chakra). As far as I know, most Kundalini-schools agree that the Kundalini does not stay for a long time in the Sahasrar. More yoga practice is thus required. This could also "explain" how most practitioners after initial Stream entry stay in a state of clarity and bliss for some time and then seem to fall out from it again. (The tune often heard: "Have I lost enlightenment?") Arahatship might actually be the moment the Kundalini finally has pierced the Sahasrar and steadily stays there without falling back anymore. But some schools seem to believe that the Kundalini ends up resting in the 3rd eye, not in the Sahasrar. So, lots of guess work here.

I personally believe that a lot of psychological problems related to the Kundalini arousal actually are due to 2 problem fields:

1. A lack of an explanatory framework which includes answers to some of the existential questions of life. This is usually a problem for practitioners outside of every tradition. They do not have the support of myths, stories, philosophy, respected teachers etc., all of which would make up a framework to relate your experiences onto.
One thing I always loved about Buddhism is this story of the Buddha sitting under the Bodhi tree taking a firm vow not to get up until he has resolved the most pressing existential question that bothered him. In the end, trying to solve the existential questions of life puzzling me has always been my motivation for spiritual practice. Thus, I always related to difficult spiritual experiences from this kind of existentialist a point of view. If there was an answer to the fundamental suffering, I wanted to find it, no matter what. This dedication, I think, has finally helped me a lot cycling the dark nights.

2. The practitioner is/was a psychologically immature person, not rarely trying forcefully to awaken the Kundalini because he or she had read some fantastic stories about it. Typically, this guy has already read Aleister Crowley, tried magic and stuff. Or taken drugs or both. (Don't get me wrong here: it's okay to try out magic. If you meditate however to get access to siddhis for your own pleasure or empowerment, you'll be in trouble sooner or later. The siddhis will simply eat you up - if you get any at all, this is.) Once the Kundalini actually starts rising, this person is not at all prepared to confront the dark night realms awaiting him or her. The Kundalini wants you to transcend the ego, this kind of practitioner usually tries to preserve the ego. The clash will come for sure.

Aye, I'd agree with you there fckw and in particular with your point about psychological immaturity. It's usually these same people who end up burning themselves out through incorrect, or excessive usage of these techniques and spend years struggling with the fallout.

I believe I encountered "kundalini syndrome" in the past through the gung-ho approach I took to magick, my own experience involved going through a period of alternating between mania and severe depression, extreme paranoia, visual and auditory hallucinations, and basically being unable to function to the point where I remained in the house for three months. Fortunately I learned to work through this myself but it's frightening to encounter these sensations without the appropriate guidelines and instruction. In retrospect, it felt like a really intense Re-observation actually.

Eric, what do you mean by "kundalini-type pure mystics"? I checked out some of the reviews on that book you mentioned and it sounds quite interesting. I remember reading something about chemical activity within the brain of schizophrenics being similar to that of a mystic, the difference being that the mystic accesses these states by choice and within a conceptual framework.

Tommy, I'm not really that sure what I mean, but basically I'm thinking of people with a lot of weird stuff going on. The energy and kundalini type stuff as well as full-blown mystical visions of alternate realities. I've had a couple of mystical friends, one who became afraid of letting go in meditation, and I've read of some Zen and Hindu masters who had experiences of bizarre alternate realities.

I tend to think, materially, of these things as brain-based, organic, something to do with people's wiring. I have a harder time connecting it with psychological immaturity, but I could see that would at minimum add to whatever is going on. The two friends I mentioned were psychologically normal. I had forgotten, but the woman in the book was at risk for schizophrenia, with her mother having the disease.

I get where you're coming from Eric, I just wondered if you were maybe referring to something specific and wanted to ask for clarity. I wouldn't say that any of this is related to "psychological immaturity" as a cause, only that the fallout from kundalini can bring up a lot of stuff which some people may not be psychologically prepared for, or equipped to deal with.

It sounds, IMHO, like your friend with the difficulties in letting go during meditation may have mistaken a vision for the end goal, even if he/she doesn't want to admit it. When you say your friends are "psychologically normal", out of curiosity, how would you define that?

Personally I've been treated for clinical depression for quite some time and there's a lot of mental illness in my family, but to anyone who knows me I appear to be a lot more psychologically "normal" than most of my non-meditating peers. Perhaps being psychologically imbalanced in the first place creates more potential for growth and provides one with an insight into the illusion of stability? Just speculation obviously but I think it's a very interesting area for discussion.

Thanks for clarifying Eric.

I think psychological imbalance, or being different in *any* respect probably contributes to people being more willing to look at and explore things outside of the norm. I'd say it did for me.

Briefly, my one friend had a meditatively induced experience where she couldn't understand what words meant, and it took a while for that to pass. She became understandably afraid of that happening again.

Psychologically normal may be the wrong phrase and is tricky to define, as you point out there are aspects that may not be apparent in normal conversation. But there are a sizable minority of people that I run into who show obvious neuroses, or have red flags like sense of entitlement, arrogance, over-compliance, control issues, poor social skills, etc. The people I mentioned appeared balanced.

I agree with you, Eric, it's not as straightforward as "normal" vs. "abnormal". In my opinion, "normal" is a non-existent average with criteria that no one person could fulfil completely.

It's like the old Quaker quote "Everyone in the world is mad except me and thee, and sometimes I doubt thee!" or something along those lines.....Ha! : )

Interesting discussion, guys.

I'm on the same page with you guys regarding the arbitrariness of the normal/abnormal split in psychology. And, it becomes particularly interesting when mystical/spiritual experiences come into play. A person who (prior to meditation practice) shows no signs of a mood episodes or psychosis (hallucinations or delusions) may have a spiritual practice induced mystical/spiritual experience that they have no idea how to interpret or otherwise handle. Such people may be relatively skilled at managing their experiential anxiety at the mundane level, but have an extraordinarily difficult time processing unusual experiences.

I'll contend that the reason these experiences are so destabilizing is because they are not culturally normalized. If someone grows up in a community of spiritual practitioners who report mystical experiences all the time, as well as pre-formed interpretations of such experiences, individuals in the group are probably less likely to react to such phenomenal appearances in a way that results in a whole lot of suffering and confusion. In psychological (behavioral analysis) terms, this is called influencing manipulable variables within one's environment in order to change the function of a stimulus. In one setting (environment), having the mystical experience (stimulus) will result in positive feelings and thoughts (function), whereas a different setting will result in negative feelings and thoughts in response to the experience.

And when you think about it, insight practice has a lot to do with changing the context of experience (e.g. mindfulness), resulting in a change in the function of experience (e.g. reduced suffering).

Just ideas. Thoughts?
-Jackson

"I tend to think, materially, of these things as brain-based, organic, something to do with people's wiring."

Brain yes, based no. Reading Ken Wilber has brought a lot of clarity to this precise question. Whereas the brain (including the rest of the body) is the outer side of the coin, the subjective mind experience is the inner side of the coin. They're two, not separable but also not identical neither. Kind of like Yin and Yang. Change one of them and you change the other. Thus meditation will show up BOTH in changes in the brain and the whole body (which is the stuff that can be measured with EEG, MRI etc.) and also in the subjective experience. The same goes for drugs, they change the brain chemistry as well as your subjective experience. It's inner and outer, none of which can simply or fully be reduced to the other without a severe loss of understandability.

Just my two cents worth. I experienced kundalini awakening long before I crossed the A&P for the first time. It was at least a year to 18 months.
paul

Paul, do you mean you experienced kundalini awakening 12-18 months prior to crossing the A&P for the first time?

I came from a very different tradition before finding the progress of insight map and encountered kundalini several times before having ever heard of the Arising & Passing. Were you involved with insight meditation when you experienced it? Perhaps it's just a conflict of terminology, I can only base my understanding on my experience obviously so I could be completely wrong.

Hi Tom,
I was doing a lot of breathing, releasing on the out-breath and was swamped in visual imagery. Yes, I experienced kundalini long before I ever crossed the A&P. I was not aware of insight meditation but when I came upon Daniel's book, website, etc, I was able to match up where I was, with his help, to being stuck in three characteristics if I remember correctly.
Paul

Hiya Paul,

My experience of the A&P, and according to Daniel's table of ñanas and jhanas, is that there are a few sub-ñana within that ñana prior to the crossing itself; an immature, a rapturous and a mature stage before the A&P Event. Kundalini activity can begin at the immature stage which, given that you now know you were stuck in the 3C's, would suggest that, although you experienced kundalini rising, you didn't make the crossing until later in your practice. What do you think? Just an amateur analysis in the interest of further discussion so please don't construe this as me trying to criticize or doubt your experience.

I always enjoy your take on this stuff, Jackson!

Is this process related to how someone who goes through a spiritual/mystical experience with no conceptual framework would be more likely to regress to their old belief systems e.g. the 'lapsed Catholic' who experienced some sort of awakening and interprets their experience as being related to "God"?

I think that your suggestion about the context of a spiritual/mystical experience is something which should be discussed a lot more, particularly for those who come to sites like this with no formal system of practice, or from more mainstream religious backgrounds. I'd say that all spiritual/mystical experience is destabilizing to some extent but being able to talk about this in psychological terms, and discussing the various physical/mental aspects of the experience would be incredibly helpful for those experiencing difficulties.

I love how these thread develop.... : )
- Tommy

Hi Tom,
I'm not very familiar with Daniel's sub-nana categories, but yes, kundalini began a long time before my first crossing, and it appears that even today, about two years later I think, it's still not finished with me yet!
Paul

I've wondered about this myself. I've had bothersome vibrations that pulse through my entire body, sort of like I'm a tuning fork. It only happens every-so-often. It's almost as if I can feel the blood racing beneath the skin or I'm plugged into a mild electrical current. It's uncomfortable. Dukkha for sure. I picked up the book Kundalini Rising, Exploring the Energy of Awakening, an anthology. (Ken Wilber has an essay about chakras not being real.) What counts as a kundalini experience? An endless list of random phenomena, it turns out. The book covers everything mentioned in this thread, and then some.

Hiya Cul,

There really is, as you say, an endless list of random phenomena that gets counted as kundalini but, in my opinion, and if people were a bit more honest with themselves instead of trying to shoehorn their experiences into what they expect to happen, I think it's safe to say that there are certain unmistakable sensations which occur during a kundalni experience. (That's not a dig at anyone btw, just in case it was taken that way!)

What you've described could easily be early 4th ñana, but that's just an opinion as it could just as easily be any number of energetic phenomena experienced when one commits oneself to practice. If you've crossed the A&P already then it might just be related to cycling through the ñanas?

I haven't read that essay by Ken Wilber, but I know that I've experienced sensations which fit with the descriptions of the chakras and appear to be active in the appropriate areas of the body. I can't say whether they're "real" or not, as far as I'm concerned the concept is effective and allows for some interesting experiences if, like any other meditative technique, it's applied correctly. Each to their own, I suppose....Ha!

-Tommy

Paul, have a look at this and see if it's any more useful than my sh*te attempts at describing this.....Ha!

www.interactivebuddha.com/Nanas%20and%20jhanas%20table.doc

Hey guys, awesome thread. I just want to add a few things:

"According to the tantric tradition, it is better not to get into tantra, but if we must get into it, we had better surrender. Having surrendered, we must give up the idea of survival." - C. Trungpa

In Tantric Buddhism, we find the concept of transmission or "abisheka": the teacher transmists wisdom to the student. So the idea is that the student must be a "good vessel", that is, there has to be a willingness, disposition and complete surrender to the teacher, so that he can "pour" wisdom into the student.

Lets say the teacher is the teaching, the teaching is wisdom and wisdom is prajna: that is, instant and constant disembedding (pure emptiness). In order to receive transmission of wisdom, one has to surrender completely to this "constant disembedding". In my experience, if there's a part of the practitioner that hasn't learned to surrender, wisdom will get stuck. This is what creates blockages. So I agree with Ken Wilber: chakras, energy and kundalini have no reality. What we feel is just grasping to any of the skandhas, to characters, to space, to time, thoughts, stories, etc.

In KFD terminology, kundalini syndrome occurs because either we haven't "paid the toll" (given up what is suffering), nor we haven't turned the dead man's switch (mastery of the 4 foundations of mindfulness).

Mindfulness works as a conduct, like a wire, and the transmission we get is the "constant disembedding". If something assumes itself as "existent", then the "disembedding" will feel like accumulated energy (bliss, tingling, pressure, pain, rigidity, etc.)

"we haven't turned the dead man's switch (mastery of the 4 foundations of mindfulness)."

That's an excellent phrase.