Dark Night and Depression

Practicality FTW. Ha! A good point, well made.

I think the mind wants sensibility, predictability and simplicity. It wants to think it understands. It is acutely uncomfortable with uncertainty, with "I don't know." I happen to think this is one area where "I don't know" is more than appropriate.

I think there are clues as to what's going on. For example, if no external circumstances have changed (worsened) in your life, and yet you suddenly feel extremely afraid or miserable or disgusted--AND you recently went through a period where your meditation was flying along effortlessly and was characterized by an unusual amount of fireworks and bliss--it makes pretty good sense to at least have the suspicion that your experience is being colored by the nyanas.
And of course, it's not a 1-or-0 situation. Physical factors such as sleep, nutrition, genetics/brain chemistry, the environment (literally sometimes, the weather and its effects on your mood, or the pollen count!); relational factors such as what's going on with your friends, family and coworkers or in Libya or Japan; the meditative path and its dynamics--you can't ever separate any of this out. It all happens at once. Maybe when three of the quadrants, to use integral speak, are as positive as they can be, hitting the DN isn't so bad. At other times it's the proverbial perfect storm--things are going to hell in all dimensions. You haven't been able to sleep, you're eating junk, you've gotten in fights with your spouse or boss, you found mold growing in your house--and now you've hit the DN! That's when it gets really hard to sort out the cause of the depression.

"
I think the mind wants sensibility, predictability and simplicity. It wants to think it understands. It is acutely uncomfortable with uncertainty, with "I don't know." I happen to think this is one area where "I don't know" is more than appropriate.

"

Why do you find "I don't know" more appropriate? What specific attitudes do you find "I don't know" more appropriate than?

What exact kind of "I don't know" you suggest? There's the "Zen Mind Beginner's Mind" version, which grants peace and freedom right now. There's a different "I don't know" for scientific thought. Open-minded skeptics know the dangers of conceptual thinking, but don't abandon it. They judiciously use those concepts which are useful. They vigilantly seek out the problems with current models, but never expect to perfect them -- after all, the map is not the territory. Also, bias never sleeps.

If you find such an approach unhelpful, please say so clearly and forcefully.

If you think concepts have any value here, then which ones? Nobody with half a brain ever expects the maps of insight or even the most detailed psychological interview to diagnose with 100% specificity and sensitivity. On the other hand, you probably agree that it's worth TRYING to do SOMETHING to help. When you do that, you WILL use heuristics, which are always biased, to figure out what you think is going on. May as well openly discuss them to minimize the bias.

You've already told us what you think isn't helpful: clinging to views. I agree wholeheartedly.

So what approaches do you find appropriate when used but not clung to?

"Why do you find "I don't know" more appropriate? What specific attitudes do you find "I don't know" more appropriate than? "

Well, to repeat what I said earlier, I think the number of variables that distinguish Dark Night from depression, when considered on a person by person, case by case basis, are enormous and might be impossible to sort out other than like that, person by person, case by case. So "I don't know" refers to my opinion that we tend over apply models to things like this, sometimes thinking we know more than we really do, and never really getting very far except anecdotally, personal story by personal story. It's not a big deal. It's just my opinion as someone who has suffered from both depression and Dark Night often enough. So... you should carry on and I hope you prove me wrong!

Just out of curiosity, does anyone else here have a soft spot for Dark Night? I know it's hellish at times but there's something about it, the emotional honesty and depth of feeling, which is very cleansing and purifying.

Thanks Ron for this thread. I really hope it goes somewhere. I've never seen a thread or been in a conversation that was actually able to come up with criteria that would distinguish DN from Depression. I really really hope that folks that feel they can do so will please speak up!

And please don't worry if you haven't thought it totally through, just put some ideas on the table.

I find myself unable to distinguish between the two.

I am going to reread Dark Night of the Soul by St. John of the Cross and interview a handful of spiritual teachers and review the literature and see what I get. This could take me a few weeks, but I will try to craft an informed opinion, just to weigh in on the topic. I'll post whatever I have in a week or two.
~Cul

"
I am going to reread Dark Night of the Soul by St. John of the Cross and interview a handful of spiritual teachers and review the literature and see what I get. This could take me a few weeks, but I will try to craft an informed opinion, just to weigh in on the topic. I'll post whatever I have in a week or two.
~Cul
"

Thanks Cul!

"Just out of curiosity, does anyone else here have a soft spot for Dark Night? I know it's hellish at times but there's something about it, the emotional honesty and depth of feeling, which is very cleansing and purifying."

I've thought about this recently, in a different way: I do find there is something kind of addictive about DN phenomena, a quality of drama and "authenticity", especially when they fade as Equanimity arises. I can start to feel like, "hey, where did it go? This can't be real practice anymore!".

Is it "honest"? I don't think so, at least, no more than the other stuff. There's a flavour of "I have been bad and deserve to be punished" in that addicitive feeling, I think, that causes us to trust and privilege bad feelings over good ones.

Speaking to the main topic: I've never experienced clinical depression, although my practice has helped a lot with anxiety and a mild degree of obsessive-compulsion. My feeling is that the urge towards anxiety or OC doesn't fade at all (at least not at my post-first-path stage). The urge is just "framed" in a kindlier space where I can dismiss the impulses and not suffer.

This leads me to assume that meditation effects and clincial disorders still remain quite distinct. Can you link DN to any one psychological phenomenon? At one stage it resembles hypomania, at another, it looks like depression, at yet another, it looks like anxiety, and so on. I work on the assumption that meditation and awakening may alleviate suffering and leave space to heal, but don't counteract any persistent disorders directly. But that's very much a layman's opinion!

Rob:

Neuroscientist note changes in the brain structure of long-term meditators . Changes are visible on MRI or CT scans (can't recall which one). Some areas of the brain grow thicker and, because of neuroplasty, the minds of meditators do transform through time. I think the amygdale, the emotional, 'knee jerk' reaction part of the brain, is impacted by the overall changes. When we train ourselves to disembed, it really works. I'm always blathering on about how much I respect Buddhist, Neuroscientist, Psychologist Rick Hanson and his writing. He's able to put these findings in lay terms. I'll email him and see if he would comment about DN v Depression. He may not respond, but I'll try him anyway.

"Is it "honest"? I don't think so, at least, no more than the other stuff. There's a flavour of "I have been bad and deserve to be punished" in that addicitive feeling, I think, that causes us to trust and privilege bad feelings over good ones."

I should probably have been more clear about what I meant by "honest", what I was getting at is that, in my experience at least, there's something about DN which makes the effects, negative ones in particular, of our actions very clear. It's not that "deserving to be punished" feeling, that sounds more like when my old Catholic programming pokes it's head up, it feels more like acceptance and surrendering to the experience, you know that if you fight it it's going to be worse so you sit with what's happening and really be with these emotions.

"I should probably have been more clear about what I meant by "honest", what I was getting at is that, in my experience at least, there's something about DN which makes the effects, negative ones in particular, of our actions very clear... it feels more like acceptance and surrendering to the experience, you know that if you fight it it's going to be worse so you sit with what's happening and really be with these emotions."

I see what you're getting at- I read a bit of my own recent reflections into what you were saying. I agree- it's during the DN that what we are "fighting" gets thrown into sharp relief, and we get a chance to choose to sit with it!

" Rob:

Neuroscientist note changes in the brain structure of long-term meditators . Changes are visible on MRI or CT scans (can't recall which one). Some areas of the brain grow thicker and, because of neuroplasty, the minds of meditators do transform through time. I think the amygdale, the emotional, 'knee jerk' reaction part of the brain, is impacted by the overall changes. When we train ourselves to disembed, it really works. I'm always blathering on about how much I respect Buddhist, Neuroscientist, Psychologist Rick Hanson and his writing. He's able to put these findings in lay terms. I'll email him and see if he would comment about DN v Depression. He may not respond, but I'll try him anyway. "

Yes, I find this neuroplasticity stuff fascinating, and I really do believe it works. I guess what I am wondering, from a neurological point of view is this: when dealing with some kind of persistent "disorder" like depression, chronic anxiety, etc., does the effect of meditation actually do anything to whatever part of the brain is firing to cause the "disorder"? Or, does it build another, distinct part of the brain that allows you to live with the so-called disorder without suffering? As I say, I wonder about this, because of the sense that I still fully 'feel' all the impulses of mental suffering that drove me to meditate in the first place, but I also feel less suffering! Sometimes I think, "Oh, back in the day, I would have had a panic attack right about now. Funny, that."

""...does the effect of meditation actually do anything to whatever part of the brain is firing to cause the "disorder"? Or, does it build another, distinct part of the brain that allows you to live with the so-called disorder without suffering? As I say, I wonder about this, because of the sense that I still fully 'feel' all the impulses of mental suffering that drove me to meditate in the first place, but I also feel less suffering! Sometimes I think, "Oh, back in the day, I would have had a panic attack right about now. Funny, that."
"

Rob:

Yes. You build calming connections to incline the mind away from anxious states. I had the same issue with anxiety. I heard one of Rick's talks. He said that anxious states can build on themselves if you don't train the mind. I had PTSD and awoke with night sweats and tremors and the cortisol never stopped dumping into my system. I couldn't figure out what triggered it at first. Guided meditation was the thing that finally turned things around. Now, like you said, if I'm in a high stress situation, I can stay reliably steady and calm, but part of the mind recognizes, yet over-rides the trigger. You can read about this at Dr. Hanson's website. I've put the link below. It says, " [the] parasympathetic wing of the nervous system dampens the sympathetic wing. The two operate together like a see-saw. When PNS goes up, the SNS goes down. When the SNS goes up, it knocks the PNS down." The website is www.wisebrain.org/ParasympatheticNS.pdf .

I'm excited to share some of my research with you'¦hope you enjoy reading!

This writing addresses 'Differential Diagnosis Between Mental Disorders and Spiritual Emergencies'.

I attended a workshop today offered by the Midwest Meditation and Psychotherapy Institute. Phillip Moffitt was the day-long speaker. For those who don't know him, he is a guiding teacher at Spirit Rock Meditation Center, author of Dancing With Life: Buddhist Insights for Finding Meaning and Joy in the Face of Suffering, former Editor in Chief of Esquire magazine, who holds a black belt in Aikido. The topic was 'Finding Freedom form Difficult Emotions: An Experiential Workshop for Psychotherapists'.

Moffit spoke about his intense desire to follow a spiritual path. He joined an ashram at 23 and practiced with yogis intensely while running his own start-up magazine publishing business. He succeeded in a cut-throat climate because he framed every decision as an extension of his yoga practice. Hiring and firing people were momentary events similar to holding a posture in yoga. He was a workaholic, but he maintained a curious attitude and never saw his life as stressful; the little sleep he needed was blissful. Later, he studied Theravada Buddhism and resigned from the publishing empire at 43 to study psychology and practice the Dharma.

During one of the breaks, I asked Moffitt if he'd be willing to differentiate between clinical depression and the dark night of the soul experience. He said that he thought a dark night or 'sea at night journey' indicated a need for the seeker to decrease the amount of time on the cushion. He said seekers may have a physical or emotional block to the path. If this happens to you, just hold the experience in awareness, telling yourself 'this is how it is now'. Don't take the path too seriously. Depression and DN can co-occur, but depression might be dominant and spiritual practice may need to be relaxed or ceased.

continued...

He said on retreats he'd worked with people who, after meditating, had sudden heart pain, for example. He counted such encounters as 'spiritual emergencies'. He said he personally liked to talk people through the experience, rather than refer them for medical care, but most meditation masters recommend medical care just to be safe. He said if he suspects a meditator is in a state of spiritual emergency, he will not allow them to participate in sitting meditation. He recommends walking meditation or yoga.
He said 'many are called, but few are chosen' to enlighten or reach nibbana, and that obsession with the path often leads to spiritual crisis, so people should dial it back and normalize their life and practice.

His website offers techniques therapists can use with clients. He recommends teaching mindfulness as therapy. Check it out at DharmaWisdom.org

For a more academic (but still fascinating) discussion of 'Differential Diagnosis Between Mental Disorders and Spiritual Emergencies', including case histories, go to www.spiritualcompetency.com/jhpseart.html

Hi Cul,

I didn't get a chance to thank you for all this info as I was busy putting together a website - but I want to make sure you know how much I appreciate it!

Since the last time I wrote I was put in contact (via Chris_TK) with a researcher at Brown University who is studying this very thing (she recently interviewed Phillip Moffit and our very own Kenneth Folk). I'm joining her research project and helping her to collect data on the dark night. Her name is Willoughby Britton and below is a link to a video of her giving a presentation on the research:

alohadharma.wordpress.com/2011/04/26/res...fects-of-meditation/

As part of the project I'm going to be interviewing people about their own experiences with the dark night. It would be a huge help to the scientific community if folks in our community told their stories about this stuff - so if anyone would like to volunteer to be interviewed by me, please do so!

Ron:

Thanks for the link and keep us posted on your research.