Violent Fruition

I was meditating earlier today, noting in "triplets" and going through the stages of insight fairly rapidly. A fruition happened, but this was really violent and shocking compared to anything I've experienced before and left me quite shaken.

I resolved to experience it again and did so within about 4-5 minutes only it was much less pronounced this time, although still noted as being based around the top of the head as the first one was. Resolved again and paid attention to how it presented, but the intensity decreased as before and the other two fruitions felt more like what I'd associate with fruition through the suffering door. After the first fruition I immediately felt that there was no center point and felt "done", but this has since subsided leaving a very open and spacious awareness which feels based around the area above and behind the head.

I should mention that, inspired by a Hamilton Project podcast about the jhanic arc, I've been experimenting with fruition through all three doors at once, and working more with the Witness while walking around, or when I've got a bit of time on my hands. I haven't sat tonight but will be doing some samatha later so I'll see if anything's changed there. At present, there's still no sense of a center point if I turn awareness towards what's observing but I certainly don't think this was 4th Path so time and practice will tell I suppose.

I remember reading Nick talking about this sort of violent fruition so I'm going to check out that thread, but does this sort of fruition seem familiar to anyone else? It felt pronounced and changing enough to have been a Path but, as usual, this is just me speculating so I'd appreciate anyone's input or opinion.

Thanks!
- Tommy

I get these from time to time. No big deal. The aggravating factor is almost always being highly concentrated. The trick is to remember to note the mind contents such as: "Oh god that was mind blowing", or "Was that path?" rather than being embedded. It sounds like noting in triplets got your concentration all jacked up. Good times.

Cheers Owen, I was reading your threads earlier where you mentioned these sorts of fruition and learned a sh*tload from that too. I did start noting immediately and got a lot of clinging to the experience, wanting to make it seem more important than a normal fruition, with the unease and air of dukkha following so I'm keeping it in perspective and taking your "no big deal" comment to heart. Good times indeed!

Thanks again.

Hi Tommy,

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by a violent fruition. A fruition in the Theravada sense is always a non-event, a moment of cessation of the mind/body process. So anything that you are experiencing, whether subtle, coarse, or violent, is not a fruition by this definition. It may be that you are describing some phenomenon that followed a fruition, but I think it's important to make this distinction in order to keep the language as clear and descriptive as possible.

In either case, I agree with Owen that any experience whatsoever can just be chocked up as one more interesting phenomenon. Anything that happened in the past (even a few seconds ago) is not particularly relevant to the current experience. In *this* moment, on the other hand, I am thinking, feeling the pressure of the keys under these fingers, feeling the cool breath entering these nostrils, and enquiring into who might be having this experience. In this way, the thought loops that carry us into the proxy life don't gain much momentum. The thought that all of this is happening to "me" does not snowball; in such a situation, everything seems right with the world. Another way of saying it would be, "No self, no problem." Happily and paradoxically, it is precisely this kind of attention to the moment that leads to progress through time, all by itself, in the same way that a plant grows just by being exposed to the sunlight.

There is always a temptation to fall in love with phenomena. We all do it, and our emphasis here on reporting in phenomenological terms makes those of us in this pragmatic dharma community especially vulnerable to it. No problem, though, and it will all work itself out in the wash. Just be sure to be present as you are writing your report and even this mundane task is simultaneously awakeness and the road to awakeness.

Metta and mudita,

Kenneth

Apologies for the lack of definition and description, I've since, as both Owen and yourself recommend, just noted it as an interesting phenomenon and moved on with practice as normal.

As for what I meant by "violent fruition", the way I recall it was that there was a "pop" sort of sensation at the top left hand side of the head, a ripping sensation and a flash of blackness then nothing, like a 1-2-3 movement then into cessation, before coming 'back online' slowly. This is just my recollection of it expressed as accurately as I can at present but I fully understand and appreciate your words about clarity and accuracy.

Reading that second paragraph is like being led into this moment....thank you.

Metta and mudita in your, and everyone's, direction also!

Tommy

Yeh, I think I called one of the "special" fruitions that lead to third path a "violent fruition. It was the entrance which seemed violent like a sudden upsurge of movement in the head , and the tensing below the crown seemingly more pronounced and ..well, violent. It just felt like a very sudden, hard and out of the blue shot to the brain followed by an unknown moment then the exit experience. This was after not having had many fruitions for a number of weeks.

The exit from the cessation was equally dramatic with a much more obvious rebooting period for the mind which lasted longer than a normal fruition and the bliss wave was much more full-bodied and left me quite "blank" and blissed out for a long while afterwards. The next day the mind was seen to be extremely aloof towards all the phenomena of the mind and body.

Do you feel different after it, Tommy? Any perceptual differences?

Here we go: I found the post where I talk about it.

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/36...et=120&maxResults=20

See post 137. I used the analogy of two strong magnets suddenly slamming together in the brain then followed by the cessation.

Nick

Hi Tommy,
I had a very similar experience to Nick upon entry to third path. I too used the term 'violent' because the comparative, initial sensation was a hell of a clunk, not the feather like nothing event of first and second path cessations. After the initial 'tremor' a cessation followed, again like Nick, an event which followed weeks of no fruitions. Nick has far greater details than I...all I can say is that the rebooting was long and well....I wasn't quite the same after the event!!
Paul

Nick and Paul,

I checked out Nick's thread and that sounds pretty much identical to what happened on Saturday, I'll just emphasize here that I'm not holding onto it or treating it as anything other than an interesting fruition, Path or otherwise.

After the event/non-event and the reboot I felt that something was different, a complete shift in my relationship towards the mind/body process, as Nick says, and I now see how accurate the word "aloofness" is to describe how things are being perceived. It's quite hard to define, if an emotion arises, pleasant or unpleasant, there's no attachment to it and they seem to kinda slide off of the sensations of a perceiver. I've noticed this before but it feels different in a very subtle way.

Another change I noticed during practice last night (1.5 hours) is that the left and right-hand sides of my body feel very balanced wheras before I was noting differences between them, there was more emphasis on the left-side around the head, for example, during the dukkha ñanas, but that appears to have stopped and the whole body feels much more present throughout the meditation.

Nick, you mentioned a few "special" fruitions pre-3rd Path, I mentioned another different sort of fruition in my report a few weeks ago but, as seems to be the case with yourself and Paul, this was followed by a lack of fruitions happening during practice for about two weeks so it sounds likely that we're all reading from the same page here. As always, I remain skeptical and consider the possibility for scripting, wishful, or downright delusional, thinking until I've sat with these apparent changes for a few weeks and done some reality-testing.

Interesting times all 'round! Thanks so much for your input everyone, I really appreciate it.

Metta to y'all.

Hey Tommy,
Can you access all 13 Jhanas and NS? Because if that suddenly shows up...

Jhana-wise, I'm fairly confident that I'm getting into PL1 and PL2 but, again, I really need to check this out to confirm it as it's been post-practice speculation and I'm always looking at the possibility of scripting myself into these things, or getting into compound jhanas. I'm hopefully going to get the chance to speak to Kenneth on Skype this week or next, and I've got a three-day solo retreat planned too so I'll be spending the next two weeks prior to this just staying with practice, and updating the practice thread.

As far as nirodha samapatti goes, I'm going to ride up and down the jhanic arc tonight for a while and report back tomorrow on what happens. Either way, I'm not holding onto any ideas about Path or whatever, I've made an arse of myself before with that so, until I get confirmation one way or another, I'm content to just practice. At present, at my work desk and without getting into strong concentration, I feel and see flickering in the visual field with a slight "darkening" happening when I turn the attention towards that spot behing the 3rd eye area.

We shall see, but thanks again for your input!

Hi Tommy,

It seems to that the after effects of fruitions can vary a lot between practitioners. My first path fruition had the most spectacular rapture and from then on the path moments became more and more subtle to the point that I only noticed third and fourth path moments afterwards noting the shift in the baseline of my practise.

The changes after third or fourth path do not necessarily come all at once. At least for me there was a transition period of several days when the new features slowly started to become clear.

In any case, good things are happening, so keep us posted!

Antero.

[Edited to add: It takes some concentration to get NS working. There is some discussion on the subject on my earlier practise thread

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/41...set=80&maxResults=20

]

Thanks Antero, that's been very useful actually. I'm going to do some kasina practice while practicing getting NS and put some emphasis on samatha for the time being.

Sat for 45 mins tonight, if I wasn't getting into at least the first PL jhana then I certainly appear to be now! Grateful? That's not even close, could have wept, it's such a peaceful, restful state that I was on the verge of tears of gratitude. If these are the Golden Handcu....sorry, Owen couldn't resist it.....Chains of 3rd Path, I can see why they could be problematic as it's just an incredible state and the afterglow is quite beautiful.

NS? No. To be honest. I tried, but I was noting some sort of "performance anxiety", a jhanic flop-off....so to speak...ahem....anyway. No, I didn't get NS. On the first part of the sitting I just focused on riding the arc but I'm still not fully confident with how to identify the arupa jhanas in order (I'm going to watch Kenneth & Nick's video after this) although there's more freedom in the higher jhanas, like I'm just more confident in my abilities, realizing that I'm not just blowing smoke out of my arse and being able to explore further.

The second part, after I was confident that I'd completed a full cycle, I aimed for NS. Basically I floundered, trying too hard to figure it out, too much thinking and trying to find the killswitch.

Just wanted to quickly update you guys and thank you all again for the support, encouragement and most importantly the honesty.

T