Not sure at what point I am...

For the longest time now, my general experience has been the Dark Night nyanas. I believe this because it matches up pretty well with descriptions of it, and because Daniel and several others, all of them arahats on the DHO, seem to believe so as well. One thing I do not understand, however, is how I must've experienced the Arising and Passing Away at a pretty young age, and yet I don't remember it. I remember recycling through it later, but in comparison to stories you hear like Daniel's where the first A+P event is remembered very vividly, I couldn't tell you at all when it first happened for sure. In fact, some of the more dramatic-sounding descriptions of the initial Dark Night experience I can't remember at all. Solid physical pain? Nope, can't remember anything like that. Why should that be?

"For the longest time now, my general experience has been the Dark Night nyanas. I believe this because it matches up pretty well with descriptions of it, and because Daniel and several others, all of them arahats on the DHO, seem to believe so as well. One thing I do not understand, however, is how I must've experienced the Arising and Passing Away at a pretty young age, and yet I don't remember it. I remember recycling through it later, but in comparison to stories you hear like Daniel's where the first A+P event is remembered very vividly, I couldn't tell you at all when it first happened for sure. In fact, some of the more dramatic-sounding descriptions of the initial Dark Night experience I can't remember at all. Solid physical pain? Nope, can't remember anything like that. Why should that be?"

Hi Mikey,

Welcome to KFD.

Best to hold off with the speculation for now and stick with explaining what happens in phenomenological detail when you sit to meditate. Try and explain the nitty gritty details of your practice here in this thread and let other yogis see patterns in what you are describing so that they may offer as precise advice as possible. Don't call the experiences this nana or that nana Just explain things as you experience them phenomenologically. THis is the way yogis here can give you guidance. What you mentioned is vague and speculative. Noone knows what you really have experienced except you so now you can take the opportunity to share that expericne. This will help avoid scripting or mistaking dark night symptoms for life stuff.

What makes you think you are in the dark night? How does the body and mind feel? What type of sensations? Thought flows? What happens when you sit to practice insight? What is your practice btw?

Looking forward to seeing what you are experiencing in your sits.

metta,

Nick

I'll second what Nick's said, this really is the best way to find out where you are as anything else is just speculation, usually based on misunderstanding what you EXPECT to happen during stages like Dark Night. For what it's worth, it sounds like you're expecting your own experience to line up with what you've read in MCTB, or from other practitioners and, while there are certain elements of each ñana which are fairly universal for everyone, your own experience is likely to be quite different.

Advice? Drop the speculation, stop trying to figure out where you are and start a practice thread to describe what's happening, as Nick says, the phenomenological details, in your meditation. I wasted a lot of time on trying to figure stuff but quickly found that there's nothing like solid, committed and regular practice to show you what's going on and, even if you're not where you initially thought you were, you know you're doing the work and getting it done. Good luck!

Metta,
Tommy

Well, to describe only what happens, not much of anything lately. When I do sit and do formal sitting meditation, I always default to Shikantaza, though I also do other stuff like simple counting the breath exercises. I've also tried the Witness out quite a bit, and that also seems to work well in keeping the hindrances at bay. I usually sit for between 40 minutes and an hour, but I by no means do formal sitting meditation every day. I do do Tai-Chi though almost every day. Much of the time my thoughts are on my practice, but there are also days when I don't want to have anything to do with it. In fact, it occurs to me that I still have trouble with the sloth and torpor deal even after all this time. One thing that seems consistent is that I have little or no control over the focus of my attention in terms of holding the attention on one single object unwaveringly for a long period of time, and straight samatha practices don't seem to be sustainable. When I concentrate on the breath, I can't help but notice how it's not one whole, uninterrupted sensation, and that leads me into an attempt to investigate every sensation that arises. The always irritating quality about both sensations and thoughts is that I can't seem to nail them down quite...especially whenever I've tried noting practice I've quickly tired of it because it feels like I can't really catch all or even most of what's going on. I also do not have the ability to sort of stand outside of my thoughts. One thing I HAVE learned is that, annoying as it is, thoughts cannot be suppressed from arising. When they do, I notice them arising in the beginning oftentimes, but I still get carried away in them, even if just for a moment, and when I shake myself back to awareness of this moment, I am only able to surmise that I was away, not directly experience the shift itself.

There's still a lot of interpretation happening here.

You'll need to do a log of your sits and report them in a similar format to what Nadav has been doing in his thread:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/40...tice+notes?offset=40

When you do your logs simply report exactly what happened in that sit without any interpretation as to what it might mean. Try not to fit it into any framework you may have put together based on what you've read.

You might also want to read these articles:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Basi...itation+Instructions
kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Detailed+Noting+is+Better

Lately I've experienced a gradual shift of sorts, though this shift is also not a permanent state. My mind often feels relatively empty, and at times it seems to take some time for thought to arise. This sensation of emptiness and the thoughts which do arise are also slippery however, and difficult to maintain a full-awareness of. It's at times difficult to be social, because it often doesn't occur to me what should be said if anything.

In this way, I can't answer your question of what a typical sit is like for me very specifically, because nothing especially demonstrative happens. In a good sit, I simply sit cross-legged on my bed and try to be aware of sitting itself and whichever sensations that arise, as well as a more expansive, continual awareness of the space I'm sitting in. But that's it, and I do that until I get tired and want to go to bed. I feel I have made progress over the past 2 years, but it's difficult for me to measure or tell you exactly how or when.

Hope this explanation helps.

"
In this way, I can't answer your question of what a typical sit is like for me very specifically, because nothing especially demonstrative happens. In a good sit, I simply sit cross-legged on my bed and try to be aware of sitting itself and whichever sensations that arise, as well as a more expansive, continual awareness of the space I'm sitting in. But that's it, and I do that until I get tired and want to go to bed. I feel I have made progress over the past 2 years, but it's difficult for me to measure or tell you exactly how or when.

Hope this explanation helps."

Hey Mikey,

Try describing what happens in your NEXT sit, not a general explanation of how a "typical" sit is. Just what is happening for you from now onwards. Forget the past and explain what is happening now as you practice.
Set aside 30 minutes or so to practice what you usually do. Pay attention to what happens from moment to moment then when you finish write it down or type it out here in this thread. And what you describe does not have to be "demonstrative". If it feels like not much, then try and explain how that feels phenomenologically.



Nick

How is your experience of sensations (hardness when sitting for example, the feel of your hands, etc.)? Do you experience any sort of tingling or pulsing? Are you mainly just seeing a difference in relation to your mind?

My initial hunch is maybe mind and body (the first insight stage)

"

"There is this sudden shift, and mental phenomena shift out away from the illusory sense of 'the watcher' and are just out there in the world with the sensations of the other five sense doors. This is an important insight, as it shows us clearly and directly that we are not 'our' mind or 'our' body. It is also a really nice, clear and unitive-feeling state (it really is still more state-like than stage-like), and people can try to hold on to it just as with the first jhana and get stuck. Reality can seem just a bit more brilliant the first time one chances into Mind and Body. We may feel more alive and connected to the world. For some it may hit with unusual force, filling them with a great sense of unity or universal consciousness. For others it may not seem very profound.

With the sensate experience of both mental and physical phenomena being clearly observable, the relationships and interactions between the two begin to become obvious. What is meant by 'the dualistic split' is very obvious during this first stage. "
- Daniel Ingram, MCTB

Since you asked for an example from now, that's what I'll give you. I just sat for a 45 minute session, and during that I did Shikantaza sitting meditation mixed with some noting, trying to hold my attention on the action of sitting but also letting my awareness take in other things. The sensation of sitting itself felt neutral, although it was slightly pleasant when the sensation of groundedness arose. Through my hands and when my awareness took in my breathing in and out, I felt a continual pulse throughout the session; my blood pulsing through my body, my breath pulsing in, stopping for just an instant on the conclusion of the in-breath, exhaling, and then stopping once more for just an instant at the conclusion of the out-breath. I am somewhat able to rest in this bodily pulsing sensation, though other sense-objects can and often do distract me. Doubt arose many times during this sit, doubt concerning my progress along the path of insight, doubt concerning the teachings, doubt concerning the efficacy of my technique to name the most prominent. Each time I experience doubt, my throat tightens and constricts and my awareness is interrupted, particularly the awareness of the moment. This discontinuity lasts a few moments, and then I bring my awareness back to simple sitting and awareness of the passing sensations of the moment. I heard the wind and sounds from outside my window, felt the sudden sound disturbance and gradual recession of disturbance when the window slammed a few times from the wind, and shifted in this way between hearing, seeing, smelling, feeling, tasting, and thinking. For hearing, I noted slight aversion at the feeling generated by the window slamming, I noted a slightly pleasant sensation in connection with the sound of the wind and the activity outside. For seeing, I noted slight changes in the visual field in color and hue as I stared straight ahead, and also changes in sharpness of object definition.

In connection with seeing, I noted craving for certain forms as thought arose in conjunction with sense-awareness, and these thoughts led to a wanting for progress and a wanting for jhana. I brought my attention back to sitting each time this happened, but not before noting this. Again, the tightness in my throat and a leaning forward in my posture happened as I experienced first desire for formations and second as a I experienced aversion to desire for formations. Smell and taste were very neutral in tone. Thoughts had a very monkey-mind quality to them, and I sat and observed an only partially coherent/formed jumble of thoughts connected with cravings entering and exiting my awareness, and I also observed the many times when these thoughts overcame my detachment and the discontinuity that resulted from the lapse in awareness. Towards the end of my sit I noticed the physical sensations of my leg falling asleep, of sitting becoming stiff and uncomfortable, of my back becoming stiff and uncomfortable, and of a mental dullness setting in. I observed this for a time and experienced the desire to go on anyway, and so I continued for a little bit. Then I decided to get up, stretch, and write this.

Great report, more like this and things will get much clearer as to what you are experiencing. Try and include more in the way of physical sensations as well ("tightness, warmth, itching, etc.")

""Again, the tightness in my throat and a leaning forward in my posture happened as I experienced first desire for formations and second as a I experienced aversion to desire for formations.""

Could you explain what formations are? How would you know you were experiencing them?

I may be referring to something else and using the wrong term, so I will explain what I DO mean. Whenever I'm meditating, either in formal sitting or walking meditation or informally, and I experience a flagging awareness, then a thought arises and I experience craving in this thought, which grasps my attention and repeatedly loops the idea which I either experience desire or aversion to. When I say formations, I mean a desire for certain mental states or certain attainments along the Path of Insight. I feel this desire for something which I either don't have or don't think I can have and, anyway, the end result is craving. This usually lasts a moment or two before I pull myself back into awareness of the present moment and the passing physical sensations and mental environment which implies it, and as I make this transition back to a lighter, freer awareness of the present moment, I become aware of the physical side effects of 1) my attention being shifted entirely into a thought and 2) identifying myself with that thought. This manifests in a feeling of tightness and constriction in my throat, and in a change in my posture from straight to not so straight. Haha.

To add to your previous request for more info on physical sensations, for the sit today I did not experience itching or warmth, so those two sensations may be considered neutral as they did not present themselves. Tightness did appear as mentioned in my throat and in the stiffness in my leaning-forward back. Additionally, awareness of the breath was centered more in the abdomen by far than in the nose or the nostrils.

I think it would be very helpful for you to work on the noting technique that most of us use on this site.( kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Detailed+Noting+is+Better ). It seems like you are in the earlier nanas to me.

"So, the opening stage feels solid. The easiest way to picture this is to imagine a new yogi on his first retreat. (For lack of a non-awkward alternative, I'm going to adopt the convention of the generic masculine pronoun, with apologies to the majority of humankind who do not consider themselves male.) The idealized imaginary yogi, on the first day of his first vipassana retreat, will reach a concentrated state and have his first insight. He will see that he is not his body, and he is not his thoughts. He will further see that mind and body are two separate things, with each influencing the other. He may even see a thought arise, as separate from "himself," the knower of the thoughts. This is an enormous development, as he has not previously considered himself to be other than his thoughts. This is the beginning of a meta-awareness, a stepping back from experience to be able to dispassionately observe experience, an ability that will strengthen throughout his life."

"This practice of deconstructing apparently solid objects of perception into their constituent parts is vipassana, which is translated into English as "seeing clearly." The yogi at the level of the first insight knowledge, however, has not yet done this. True vipassana doesn't begin until the fourth insight knowledge, Knowledge of the Arising and Passing Away of Phenomena. It is for this reason that the A & P, as I call it, is the most important of the insight knowledges, and that which opens the door for the development and final integration of the physio-energetic process called the Progress of Insight."

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/The+...sight+%28Part+One%29

Hmm, if that's true, that does feel frustrating, disappointing, and above all confusing. On the other hand, I'm seeing those emotions as not exactly me, so it's strange. In any case, I'll take your advice and keep on noting.

I can really identify with that sentiment. Early on Kenneth sort of took me down a peg in letting me know that I was probably not as far a long as I thought I was. However, he also said "It gets better" and because of that if I had these great experiences and insights now, then there's a heck of a lot to look forward to.

Keep up the good work and here's to you and your success!

P.S. I could be wrong, in which case continuing to journal will also make that clear as well.

"Hmm, if that's true, that does feel frustrating, disappointing, and above all confusing. On the other hand, I'm seeing those emotions as not exactly me, so it's strange."

Mikey, don't beat yourself up if you're not as far along as you'd like to think you are. It's so easy to do it, you're certainly not going to be the first or last person to misdiagnose themselves 'cause the majority of us on here have probably done exactly the same thing. Hell, I know I have! Ha! You know what? Those times I had the wind knocked out of my sails and was brought down to earth again have been landmarks in my development as a yogi, they pushed me to learn more and practice harder while reminding me how easy it is to get carried away with your thoughts, even when you know they're not you!

As for where you are based on your reporting so far, I'd agree with mumuwu on the early ñanas, possibly in 3rd ñana if the discomfort and bodily movements are anything to go by. Just keep at it, get a report up and ask questions! Good luck!

Just wanted to add my name to the list of people who have misoverguestimated where I was on the map. It was a blow to the ego, and oh so embarrassing. Welcome to the club!!
Keep up with a regular practice and you'll surpass where you thought you were soon enough.

Just to give everyone an update, I've kept up with the noting practice over the past few weeks. I'm pretty good about noting when I'm walking around the town I live in and going about my business, and generally the focus is on noting the movements of walking. Lift left foot, step, lift right foot, step...and so as fast as I can. That part has so far been generally very successful, though I must first remind myself to note still before beginning, and so it has not yet become totally automatic in nature. I also intersperse that with, "breath rising, pause, breath falling, pause...", and interspersing those and still keeping track of everything that's occurring as quickly as it's occurring is, unsurprisingly, problematic. At this point, when I try to do that as well as note bodily sensations, hearing, smelling, seeing, tasting, I cannot mentally speak the words fast enough, not as fast as I'm noticing them. One thing that I also cannot yet consistently do is note intention before I begin to act on it. For example, I'm reading, and I go to scratch my forehead. I only remember to note that after I've begun reaching up to scratch my forehead, not before, and not during, especially when my concentration is primarily on what I'm reading. Which brings up another question: how do I focus my attention on noticing the six senses (including mind) when I am thoroughly absorbed in a task?

Oh, one more thing: I've been experimenting randomly throughout the day with catching two different sense objects as they're operating, trying to interrupt the picture that's created of, for example, hearing a person speak, noting that as it's happening for a moment, and seeing them in the next moment, noting it. This has been moderately successful, though I wouldn't say I've directly perceived a true interruption.

Sounds like you're getting a good flow going so far Mikey, what's happening during your sits?

Why not slow down the noting to maybe one sensation per second, that way you know you're noting properly and more accurately than just trying to cram in as many as possible into each second. I was skeptical of noting this slowly too but it will absolutely and completely improve your technique, take a bit of the performance anxiety away and let you really get to grips with the basics here rather than running head first into trying to do 10-20 per second. Just a suggestion.

With regards to perceiving a "true interruption", what is it that you mean here? Daniel Ingram gives a great warm-up exercise in MCTB where he recommends focusing on one finger of each hand, and noting when the attention is on either one e.g. left or right. I can vouch for the effectiveness of this so, if I'm understanding what you're saying, give that a try.

Good luck and keep us posted!