Question for Ingram on the Controversy and AF

Are AF Luminousity and The Chree Characteristic the same thing!

I was following through Ingram's Arguments on the controversy, and meditating on there meaning, it seems to me I can shift between those different perspectives, and what he is attempting to describe makes sense. I have been thinking and considering similar thoughts of late. Also a few days ago was doing, 'how am i experiencing this moment of being alive' and that quality of pleasantness pleasure or natural simple bliss of being arose in the presence within my now continuum, and to tell you the truth it seems like a different flavour of, the luminousity of turning the "light" onto itself / to notice the "light" in phenomena. One that emphasises pleasure over the speed and effort associated with the three characteristic or the relaxation and centered flow associated with luminousity. AF seems to emphasis enjoyment in now flow, something that seems exactly the same as aspects or period of my dzogchen practice.

For example in Tilopa's Mahamudra Instruction to Naropa in Twenty Eight VersesIn the end verses, they talk about doing Tummo or kumbhaka, sort of creating a pranayama bliss state from which to recognise presence.

If the mind is dull and you are unable to practice these instructions,
Retaining essential breath and expelling the sap of awareness,
Practising fixed gazes - methods of focussing the mind,
Discipline yourself until the state of total awareness abides.

When serving a karmamudra, the pure awareness
of bliss and emptiness will arise:
Composed in a blessed union of insight and means,
Slowly send down, retain and draw back up the bodhichitta,
And conducting it to the source, saturate the entire body.
But only if lust and attachment are absent will that awareness arise.

Then gaining long-life and eternal youth, waxing like the moon,
Radiant and clear, with the strength of a lion,
You will quickly gain mundane power and supreme enlightenment.

May this pith instruction in Mahamudra
Remain in the hearts of fortunate beings.

Sorry if I appear a bit off track there. That last point was more an aside point, that that lends its self to the main point, that Dzogchen appears make reference to innate qualities that arise from the empty luminous primordial awareness, such as love, joy or bliss. Sometime these blissful states are generated as with Tummo and this places one in a state that one can easily gives rise to ungenerated blissful primordial awarenss. Here is a quote from Keith Dowman's translation of Longchenpa's 'Natural Perfection' that talks about a quality in the emptiness of presence that has pleasure as its uncausal natural expression / possibly nature.
The total presence of buddha past, present, and future
is achieved spontaneously in natural pure pleasure;
so eschewing low level, graduated, causal techniques,
watch the nonactive sky-like nature of mind! pg.174

"to understand "luminosity", "True Self", "cognizant emptiness", and that Suffering in this sense is conditioned on not perceiving impermanence and no-self clearly, as when they are perceived to sufficient degree, that Suffering vanishes, as the apparent duality is seen through"

Ingram points out here that in that perspective of primordial awareness the three characteristics are seen through and the suffering vanishes. Which to me ties into this theme i'm trying to express, about the pleasure in nowness beyond dualistic identification residing in presence or asking the quest how am i experiencing this moment of being alive right now. Which in my albeit limited experience seems just like primordial awareness.

Sure if all these Dzogchen Tradition have been emphasising awareness they would notice a gap in the awareness such as a fruitition, that seems to be the weak link in the arguement in the controversy that says the three characteristic and the luminous awareness are the same.

"Cognizance never goes away, does it? Except for Theravada ceasation and dreamless sleep, but that is a different story. '˜Recognition' of our cognizant empty nature does come and go, but not that cognizance per se. Without cognizance, you could not be cognizant that you are not cognizant; right?"

You'd be better off asking Daniel over on DhO directly, he was online last night. There's also very little talk regarding AF on here and you're highly unlikely to find many supporters of that particular movement on KFD.

As far as your initial question goes I think we're talking about two totally different experiences here. I get where you're coming from with the dzogchen practices (it's more likely that you've encountered rigpa) but AF is the complete elimination of all affect, there is no "joy", "love" or any other emotion experienced. You're definitely better off asking about this on the DhO though.

A discussion on aspects of AF would best me made over at the DhO

yeah thanks bro, but I feel this is connected to ideas from that the thread on the controversy. And I know what you say about AF have heard it from a friend before. But just recently was looking at the intro stuff on AF on DhO and seems to me could be more of a semantic discription. I'll pull a few quotes. Also Dzochen can use beyond language for unconditioned experiences, if that love is an ungenerated love that arises from the primordial ground, its not really love in the conventional sense.
Also I'm not interesting AF heads opinions but in the idea that AF is merely another flavour of Presence.

How can Pure Conscousness Be Different from Presence

All I can tell you is to try the practices they prescribe or direct mode and experience a pce. This type of speculation is somewhat pointless.

I believe I have and it always seemed liked presence.

Hi Neemnyima,

I agree with Tommy, Eric, and Mumuwu that this kind of discussion would fit better at the Dharma Overground. Daniel Ingram often posts there in response to such questions and might answer you directly.

AF is not something we talk about much here; most of us at KFD share more of an affinity with Buddhist and Advaita-style teachings. And although, as you say, AF appears to share some things in common with these other traditions, it also veers away from them in significant ways. Here again, discussions comparing AF and Buddhism are likely to gain more steam at the Dharma Overground.

Thanks for understanding,

Kenneth

Well how do I delete if that's what you want me to do. Cancelling just returns it to original txt.

I agree with Kenneth and the rest. Take it to www.dharmaoverground.org if you wish to proceed, and mumuwu's advice is spot on.

Additional apologies, I have no wish to upset anyone, by talking or speculating uselessly, especially people i admire and respect and consider teachers of sorts. If i had and doubts about that, you iced the cake. Incidentally Also after indirectly being told on my last 30 day retreat with Sayadaw U Pandita jr., that i was slacking off or letting ti slide -additionally not attaining- i know i need to get goal and intention aligned. Have subsequently, developed sits from an average of one and a half hrs to two hrs. And more importantly, additionally, beginning to also coming from a Samadhi approach, starting to strengthen concentration and mindfulness/tranquility. So, Yeah I really got stop thinking so much and get down the layers! Thanks for the reminder.