A question or two for Kenneth

I was following through Ingram's Arguments on the controversy, and meditating on their meaning, it seems to me I can shift between those different perspectives, (ie luminousity and the three characteristics) and what he is attempting to describe makes sense. I have been considering similar thoughts of late too.

But the problem with Ingram's argument is if all practitioners in the Dzogchen Tradition have been attaining from primordial luminousity awareness, when they become enlightened shouldn't they experience a gap in the awareness such as a fruitition. I have not heard talk about such cessation linked to attainments associated with rigpa. This seems to be the main weak link in the argument, that says the three characteristic and the luminous awareness are the same. Unless of course the Dzogchen tradition is not sharing this knowledge of cessation being a by product of luminous awareness styled practice.

But otherwise, when I practice I can make no clear distinction between the three characteristic and presence, and it seems Ingram's points hold true. Are they keeping the signs of cessation a secret in the Dzogchen tradition?

Written by Kenneth
"Yes, I continue to maintain that the 4th Path attainment and rigpa are two distinct phenomena. Chris made a concise but compelling case in post 58 that Daniel is using the word rigpa in a way that is not consistent with definition given by others.By my definition, someone who lives continuous rigpa is a buddha, an attainment that Daniel, to his credit, has never claimed. Such a person would be an entirely perfected human being, "never straying into dualistic thought," as is said of Samantabhadra, the Primordial Buddha of the Dharmakaya. I doubt there has ever been such a person (which is why the Tibetans bothered to invent such a mythological creature and annoint him as foremost of all the buddhas). So, we can establish a continuum with Samantabhadra on one end and someone who has never realized rigpa for even an instant on the other. Every possible human (or god) fits somewhere on this scale. What is the relationship of the 4th Path attainment to this scale? There is no relationship. 4th Path does not confer Realization of buddha nature. 4th Path is a developmental marker in a quasi-physiological process, i.e., a process of accessing and developing energy channels and nexuses. I believe there is abundant evidence for arahats (by my defintion) who have never realized and/or do not recognize the significance of rigpa.Tulku Urgyen in his book *Rainbow Painting* writes: "Each of [the first 8 vehicles (not including Dzogchen)] from the very beginning feels that it is putting the genuine, authentic view into practice, and not a false one. But when viewed from the vehicle above, it appears that the view of the vehicle below is incomplete..."It seems to me that without the 4th Path attainment we cannot reach our potential with regard to stabilizing rigpa. So, these two distinct phenomena go together like bread and butter. But both are required, and one does not automatically grant the other."

I have been very curious of late with regard to my practice. Because as I stated above, I really relate to a flow of experiences through my continuum, these can be sensations assoicated with percieving the three characteristics in a non-dual way. An open flowing presense that when held in the right way gives and is-ness to pain. Then sometimes I shift to a more effort based or penetrative based process which moves sensation in a more intense way. But here's the real question -finally- Above you make reference to needing 4th path to stablise Rigpa. I have been wondering whether this might be the case, and whether one will produce path as a result of Dzogchen Practice. And whether the the Dzogchen lineages have an awareness of path as a by product of consolidation of primoridal presence?