First time post, seeking guidance

First of all, I have lurked on this site before. After reading through some of the posts I resonated with the high quality of the information on this site. Also I could feel that individuals were speaking from experience and and not just grabing from their wealth of nondual concepts.

I've spent years dabbling in different traditions. About 5 years ago I had the pleasure of meeting a highly awakening individual here in the Chicagoland area. Sitting with him, being in his presence something awoke within me. By his grace I had awakened to pure consciousness, my subjective nature. His instruction to me was to abide as that. After a period of time, this individual left for India and has not come back. Most likely never will.

I followed my teacher's instruction. Consciously and constantly abiding very diligently. My work was hyper-masculine and very disciplined. I pretty much lived of my savings, took a sabbatical off of work. At the time my meditation practice was anywhere from 4-8hrs a day. The result of this practice was absolutely jarring. The identification with the body/mind was minimal. I was existing primarily through the universal experience, gone was the individual. Gate,gate, paragate.... Truth was so obvious and apparent, cause I was living through it, I WAS it. The words of the saints and sages came alive. People would communicate and I was smile delightfully at them as all I would see is symbolic sounds coming out of their mouths, there were no more words, no more concepts. The thought processes nearly halted. And when thoughts did arise, they were so transparent, and so impersonal, just like the monitor I'm currently looking at. It was the most transcendent time. Tons of superficial energy movements. Receiving and given shaktipat to nearly anyone/everyone inadvertently. The body was radiant and there was an intense fire in the eyes. Even this was neti, netied away....

Apparently the max characters is 2000? Anyways, I'll continue with a reply...

After about a year of seclusion, I was rather rudely forced back into the world. Finances had become an issue, had accumulated a great amount of debt, my wife was getting restless, as I would just pass her by in the house without acknowledging her, and a part of me was a bit burnt out in the effort involved in maintaining this state of constant samadhi.

Slowly I found employment and started to re-integrate into the world. This was incredibly challenging. I felt like the cartoon character who has built a damn and is trying to prevent the leaks. A leak would spring and he would run up and seal it with a piece of chewing gum, and then another and another... That's how I felt. It was this frantic effort to maintain this state. To keep the purity. Fighting like hell!

Well eventually maya got the best of me. The neurosis of the mind has come back to a considerable degree. Identification with the body mind has returned to a considerable degree, suffering, anxiety, depression, the story of john, all this fun stuff kinda creeped back in and established roots.

Still there is a fight, I meditate when I can, anywhere from 2-3 hours a day now. Existentially, however the experience is very painful and depressing. Delusions of running away to a far away land and thoughts of suicide come up on almost a daily basis. Not to alarm anyone, these thoughts would never be acted upon...

Initially I searched to neo-advaita for an answer. What a joke. Most of the neo-advaita teachers are armed to the teeth with a vast array of nondual concepts and have a great understanding of it. I'm sure they have all have experienced some non-dual awakening, but so what? Awakening and $2.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. It was my experience that they have no presence, their state of being is completely underdeveloped.

There is no absorption, no samadhi to their experience. They are limited to the realm of concepts/mind. All they parrot is the intellectual understanding of enlightenment.

Am I desperate? More or less.

Looking for advice. Looking for some reassuring words. Looking for help integrating the relative and absolute. Looking to reclaim that perfect peace without exception, looking to be myself. Looking for individuals locally whom to connect with.

Any and all feedback would be helpful in this period of difficulty that is being experienced. Thanks to all who have taken the the time to read through.

Hope you all enjoyed this fictional tale of the fictional character john. Yes, he has a wonderful imagination

love,
j

Sounds like you were using the technique we refer to as 2nd gear here. This is taking the witness as object. It has the symptoms you lay out here (the aloofness you describe resonates especially well).

It sounds like you may have crossed the A&P (the various energetic stuff you describe) and are now finding yourself in the Dark Night.

You may want to spend some time reading the descriptions of 2nd gear on this site and also maybe have a look at the progress of insight and see if any of the stuff regarding A&P and Dark Night ring true.

You've come to a good place. Welcome!

"Sounds like you were using the technique we refer to as 2nd gear here. This is taking the witness as object. It has the symptoms you lay out here (the aloofness you describe resonates especially well).

It sounds like you may have crossed the A&P (the various energetic stuff you describe) and are now finding yourself in the Dark Night.

You may want to spend some time reading the descriptions of 2nd gear on this site and also maybe have a look at the progress of insight and see if any of the stuff regarding A&P and Dark Night ring true.

You've come to a good place. Welcome!"

Mumu,

Thanks for the reply. From briefly reading the description, I tend to agree with you. I would say my baseline is 2nd gear and at times perhaps having had glimpses of 3rd gear.

I assume that the "I AM" is second gear. And abiding as the I AM is second gear as well.

According to the teaching, the transition from 2nd gear to 3rd gear is constant and conscious abidance. Along the lines of what the advaitic sages (Nisargadatta, Ramana)would say.

Guess, I was kinda looking for some loophole to this practice.

This was something I was a bit worried about as the past 2-3 years or so had been so incredible difficult to abide in the "I AM" while living as a householder. On one hand, I don't have what it takes to go in seclusion and on the other my current state is fundamentally painful. The feeling of being trapped in between the relative/absolute.

I'll do some reading on the Dark Night and thumb through the site.

Thanks,
j

Thank you for sharing your story.

Kenneth teaches a way to awakening; happiness that is not dependent on conditions. The attainments that people talk on this site are not temporary bliss states or states of absorption that are dependent on one's level of concentration or practise conditions. A lot of households with jobs and daily responsibilities have also awakened through Kenneth's teachings.

One of the best things that have ever happened to me was when I contacted Kenneth and he started to teach me one year ago. I can also recommend starting a practise journal on this site to get support from other yogis on your path.

May you awaken in this lifetime.

Antero.

thanks for sharing your story - It surprises me to no end that people refuse to see how the brain is changed by meditation and how it is really a 'fringe science' and not some mysterious, unknowable thing. One of my personal issues with most teachings I come across out there is that noone seems to correlate their current state of being with their past efforts, as if somehow everything they did and learned in the past was a mistake and their current mindset on practice is enough to get people to where they are now. This is baloney. If teacher x is enlightened and went through steps a, b, c, and d before arriving at the big E, then why do they keep insisting that steps a-d aren't necessary? I have met people who had big changes in their state of being that persisted for years or more and they teach but don't know technically what they did to get there. IMHO this site and the people here are worth more than gold. I hope you can find something of use here for your practice. - I apologize for the rant. This is a sore subject for me

Yes, thanks for sharing your story on the forum.
While you're reading through the KFD stuff here on this site, consider going to the Buddhist Geeks Web site and reading the Q&As with Kenneth at the digital magazine (if you haven't already read through them). You could just do a search for Kenneth Folk on the search bar; I believe there are some links to them on this site somewhere as well.
There's some great stuff in there, including a fair amount about the dark night and how to work with it, as well as some descriptions of how the three gears work together, etc.

Your story seems familiar to me: my early enlightenment experiences slipped away despite my desperate efforts to hold onto them. I crashed into the dark night with a vengeance.
I've had a harder time getting past this stage than some yogis here, but I'm very grateful for the clear and constructive techniques Kenneth has taught me, and I'm continually inspired by the brilliant and dedicated yogis in KFDland.
Best of luck!

Interesting story. What, other than the need to return to normality and earn some money, do you think contributed to your 'fall from grace'?

The best reassurance I could give you would be to say that I, and most other people on here, know exactly what you're talking about and have lived through similar situations.
Integration? That's a process which, in my opinion at least, never ends so focus on what's happening right here, right now.
Advice? Contact Kenneth and have a chat with him, he really, really, really knows his stuff and is a top notch guy. Other than that, just continue reading the 3 Gear system and keep up a good momentum in your practice which doesn't necessarily mean that you need to sit for 2-3 hours a day.

There's a line in your post which caught my attention: "Still there is a fight". It's probably just me reading too much into it but this suggests a few things to me, firstly that you're not done with this whole enlightenment thing but that you've still got the desire to get "off the ride", so this is a wonderful thing and will keep that fire in your gut. Secondly, you're approaching what we call Dark Night, the existential crisis which almost everyone on the spiritual path will encounter, as if it's something to battle through, which is true up to a point but there comes a time when you need to just surrender to it and let it happen. This period is deeply cleansing and even though it seems like hell on Earth 99% of the time, this is an incredible opportunity to drop all the sh*t you don't need and move on to the next part of the journey.

There's no need to become a hermit or a monk, you don't need to abandon your life and run away to an island. Awakening to the happiness which is not dependent on conditions is right there in front of you, follow the techniques Kenneth teaches and you'll see it for yourself.

The dark night can be a great time to learn in detail about the mechanics of suffering.

The trick it seems to me is to really become committed to owning one's own suffering, and its origin in one's deluded views and reactive intentions. I have found that a good approach to life and practice during such phases is to commit to taking complete responsibility for my own suffering, foregoing completely any blaming of circumstances and thus also any fantasies of escape. Just letting go of (neither repressing nor proliferating) all that blame and fantasy of escape and being with the raw suffering, unsatisfactoriness, as much as possible.

Seeing this raw suffering clearly and continuously, suffering will show itself in its mechanics, its precise causality.

Seeing this precise causality (and how its locus is in my own mind, not circumstances), clearly and continuously, inevitably leads to seeing the cessation of suffering.

Also, consider whether identifying with the unconditioned consciousness isn't just as unsatisfactory as identifying with the bodymind (certainly isn't very satisfactory for our ignored loved ones ). Perhaps the issue is identification itself-- whether "pure I am" or "I am jake or john or whoever"-- and not how to permanently shift identification from the personal to the transpersonal. Perhaps identification of whatever sort is a compensation for an unacknowledged distress at not-knowing (who, what, or whether "I am").

Jake

The 'fall from grace' was solely a result of being forced back into the world, back into relationship, back into society. Just relating to others, playing the role of 'john', identifying with career, material possessions, family members, little by little it started slip sliding away. Hence these strong fantasies of leaving the world. This was very experiential for me.

My teacher leaving also had much to do with this. He was my rock. When I became shaky I would sit with him, drink tea, go for a walk and immediately his transmission wold ground me back into reality. Loosing him was definitely a blow.

As far as most people on here know what I'm talking about... I don't believe that to be the case. I feel sometimes that the level of dissolution that was experienced was somewhat of a rarity. A few months back I happened to stumble upon Augustleo's journal. I resonated with it and felt that this most closely described my process. Is he still active on here?

Is there a systematic list of the practices on the website here? I'm pretty firm in my practices and have strong tendencies towards them. However, perhaps it is time for a change.

Have individuals following Kenneth's methods reached completion?

Thank you all for your support during these difficult times. The intense apathy I feel towards existence is rough. At times I want to throw this bag of bones over a compost heap and let it rot away

love,
j

Jake,

Good advice, it resonates. Thank you. j is playing the victim card and projecting outwards.

Unconditioned consciousness isn't unsatisfactory as long as it remains in the realm of unconditioned consciousness. Who cares? Who business is satisfaction? There is no one there to attach itself to such things.

Can you expand on this "Perhaps the issue is identification itself-- whether "pure I am" or "I am jake or john or whoever"-- and not how to permanently shift identification from the personal to the transpersonal. Perhaps identification of whatever sort is a compensation for an unacknowledged distress at not-knowing (who, what, or whether "I am")."

thanks...
j

about sticking with your practice - it seems untenable. constantly seeking a particular state which is fragile at best - seeing as how when it came into contact with the world it rapidly fell apart. that is to say, that state of 'unconditioned consciousness' is very much conditioned, at least the way you found it (it sounds like an extended Arising&Passing Away stage, and you're in the Dark Night now). to contrast, people following methods talked about here find shifts in their baseline consciousness which are unconditioned and irreversible.

Welcome j,

Here's a story: Years ago, during a very dark and difficult time, I called Shinzen Young on the telephone to ask for guidance. I told him that although I considered myself to be a highly accomplished meditator, already enlightened at least to some degree, I was suffering terribly and I longed for surcease. Everything I cared about seemed to amount to nothing and I just wanted to "get off the ride."

Shinzen gave me some wonderful advice. He said that the problem arises when you are able to see that everything you have come to associate with yourself is dissolving, but you do not yet see that the pain of this realization is also dissolving.

Metta and karuna to you. You will find much support here and I believe you will get through this difficult time. Stick around, learn all you can, practice the techniques and become free. I wouldn't be too concerned about "reaching completion;" I reckon that like everyone else on the planet, all you really want is to be okay. And that is a very realistic goal.

I believe you will find that contentment trumps all other motivations.

May you be happy,

Kenneth

I understand where you're coming from, but leaving the world doesn't eradicate that which causes fundamental suffering. As Jake said, "Perhaps the issue is identification itself".

As far as not believing that most people on here might know what you're talking about, that's a pretty arrogant statement to make. I'm suggesting that your experience is not unique, and to claim that "the level of dissolution that was experienced was somewhat of a rarity" reeks of self-aggrandizement. That also brings me to ask why you seem so certain that your experience was oh-so-rare? Sure, you had an incredible experience but what use is it if you're still suffering?

Systematic list? Look at the tab on the left hand side, if you're using the same techniques for years and you're still suffering then it's definitely time to make a change.

Has anyone reached "completion", by which I assume you mean enlightenment, through Kenneth's methods? Yes. Lots.

How long did this period of blissfulness and peace last?
What's your practice history, what sort of techniques have you used before?
Which traditions have you practiced within?
What's your meditation practice right now?

Why not post a practice thread and then we can see what's going on during your sits?

Metta aplenty!

Thank you Kenneth and others who took time to reply...

Why does j believe it was somewhat of a rarity?

The degree of dissolution that was experienced is not something that many have been able to seem to relate to (teachers/seekers) Disappearance of self-referral for prolonged periods, having to remember the relative self through the phenomenological world, memories not registering due to not having an individual to experience resulting in this almost amnesia, etc, etc, blah, blah...

j thinks that he will need to make a change.

Kenneth, is it possible to schedule an individual session with you sometime this week?
What's the most efficient way to contact Ken?

It was about a year where dissolution was very extreme. Self-knowledge still exists and is still assimilated however suffering on many levels has come back due to periods of false identification.

Practice history? Mantra, pranayama, asanas, yoga, zen, once awakening to pure consciousness abiding as that and diving as deep as possible has been the practice.

Traditions? Haven't dabbled with zen or vipasanna too much. Have however attended a 10 day retreat.

Now? J does about 45 minutes of pranayama, about 30 minutes of spinal breathing, 100 minutes of deep abiding and 10 minutes open eyed abidance.

After J talks to Kenneth he'll set up a practice journal.

Thanks for all the great input. Looking forward to getting involved.

love,
j

Why does J insist on referring to himself in the 3rd person?

What you also need to bear in mind is that the words you use to describe these experiences may not correlate with how another person would describe the same phenomena. Personally, if you want to talk about levels of dissolution during spiritual development then I could say that my own experience involved being torn to shreds in the Abyss by the demon Choronzon, spilling my blood and having my identity dissolved to a pile of dust in the City of the Pyramids under the Night of Pan, only to be reborn as a Master of the Temple. This is obviously a tradition-specific description which will make little sense to anyone not familiar with this particular system although I'm only describing the same experience as most serious yogis or magicians encounter during the period we refer to as Dark Night, albeit veiled in symbolic terms. It's not helpful, for you or anyone trying to offer advice, to believe that what happened for you is something unique or special.

When you say "about a year where dissolution was very extreme", are you referring to the aftermath of this awakening you experienced? Also, when you talk about "false identification" can you explain a bit more about this?

You have an interesting practice history, but it seems rather scattered. When you refer to "abiding as that", I'm assuming you're talking about what's generally referred to around here as dwelling in the "I Am" a.k.a. the Witness? You appear to be well versed in this technique, and you've also hinted at having encountered "3rd gear" at times so, going by your talk of continuing identification with phenomena, it's probably worthwhile working with what Kenneth calls "1st gear" techniques like vipassana so you can end this process of idenitfication.

(Cont)

(Cont)

It's probably easiest to contact Kenneth via a private message on the site, that's how the rest of us do it. It's well worth doing, the guy's a great teacher and his synthesis of non-dual and developmental enlightenment is outstanding in my opinion. He gets to the heart of this whole thing in straightforward terms with no bulls*it!

What sort of yoga stuff have you done? Remember that not everyone on here has followed a strictly Buddhist path so you may find that there are others here who know exactly what you're talking about if you talk in terms of the other traditions you've worked within.

Why not start a journal just now?! It'd be interesting to see what's going on right now and how your practice changes after speaking to Kenneth.

Best of luck with whatever comes your way.
- Tommy

"
Unconditioned consciousness isn't unsatisfactory as long as it remains in the realm of unconditioned consciousness. Who cares? Who business is satisfaction? There is no one there to attach itself to such things.

Can you expand on this "Perhaps the issue is identification itself-- whether "pure I am" or "I am jake or john or whoever"-- and not how to permanently shift identification from the personal to the transpersonal. Perhaps identification of whatever sort is a compensation for an unacknowledged distress at not-knowing (who, what, or whether "I am")."

thanks...
j"

Well if you can see a difference between J and unconditioned consciousness, then I would say you are understanding the unconditioned through a lens-- through a filter. This is identification.

In terms of body-mind, identification habits sort thoughts, feelings, sensations and activities into "me, mine" and "not-me, not-mine". By seeing all thoughts feelings sensations and acts as "not-me, not-mine" one also takes the unconditioned as "me" (very often at least, and I think in your case this is likely-- we've all done it anyway so no big deal). It's just something to look at.

You seem to be constructing a view that you are unconditioned consciousness, and not conditioned experiences. Is this possible? This would account for some of the conflicts you are experiencing (between withdrawal and engagement, for example). It is a conflict between a transpersonal and a personal identity, which are mutually exclusive. But the answer isn't to craft the perfect identity, rather it comes through seeing clearly and continuously the unsatisfactory nature of trying to construct a permanent (and unconditioned) identity out of conditioned impermanent experiences, including the temporary experience of identification with the unconditioned.
--Jake

addendum::

But insofar as one is still habitually constructing identities (i.e., pre-fourth path?) I am inclined to say it is far more healthy and balanced to move in the direction of an all-inclusive, all-embracing identity habit. Own it all, conditioned, unconditioned, high, low, emotions, sensations, thoughts, perceptions, "mundane" experiences, "transcendant" experiences, Whatever is arising now is "me", this doesn't prevent me from seeing it as empty and impermanent, open-ended and flexible. This IMO is a healthier attitude than dis-identification, or constructing an ever more refined transpersonal identity, which excludes ever more and more of experience (while retaining an increasingly subtle hold-back of increasingly sublime "Self"). It is simply too easy to use such a *transpersonal* sublimated spiritual anonymous ego to avoid messy *personal* and instinctual (*pre-persona*l) issues, behaviors, conflicts and relational aspects of life.

A bright light casts a stark shadow But if you're willing to live in a sun-dappled twilight between high and low, inner and outer, to learn about everything in life and experience without pre-conceived notions of what "I am" or "am not", to flow with experience as-it-is, you may discover the unconditioned nature of all conditioned experiences-- the wetness of the water-- inseparable from the impermanent, dependently arisen waves, and you will be increasingly able to let life live itself AS J ....

Is there any information on the site regarding the practice style? Also, can someone bring me up to speed regarding the acronyms, AP, etc...

Can one start a practice journal with one's current practices? Or do they have to conform to the flavor of this site?

best,
j

I'd suggest the home page. Or, the box on the left, "Start Here". Then work your way down first gear, second, third.
AP=Knowledge of Arising and Passing away of Phenomena, 4th nana.

"Also, can someone bring me up to speed regarding the acronyms, AP, etc...

"

If you want to learn about vipassana practice and stages (1st gear here) then Daniel Ingram's 'Mastering the core teachings of the buddha' is very comprehensive.
Free at his website www.interactivebuddha.com