Belief

"What the thinker thinks, the prover proves" - Robert Anton Wilson

Something I've come to realize lately is that regardless of whether you're enlightened, AF, pre-Path or whatever, belief still shapes our experience of reality. If we believe strongly enough that something is true then we will find the evidence to support our belief, which is what the quote from Robert Anton Wilson points directly at.

I wanted to post this in the hope that we can all stop for a second, look at what we believe to be true and how we're all prone to presenting information with a particular bias due to this. I'm as guilty as the next person so this isn't a case of me having a dig or anything like that, but I think that we need to bear in mind that we're all still human and fallible, even if certain people believe themselves to be otherwise.

This whole AF issue is creating division and unneccesary conflict in what is otherwise a peaceful and supportive community, so I want to respectfully request that we call a stop to all this sh*t and get back to discussing meditation practice.

Leave AF on the AF sites, or on the DhO where those interested in it can find out more about it for themselves and make their own decisions.

Big love to y'all, regardless of your goals.
- Tommy

[Edited for punctuation and righteous justice]

Well said Tommy, couldn't agree more. That is the perfect quote to hopefully cut through all this separation, after all isn't all separation
just an illusion. Also what we strongly believe in now, isnt necessary going to be exactly what we believe in ten years from now.

Steve.

Belief is just another cluster of sensations, useful but ultimately transient and empty.

"Belief is just another cluster of sensations, useful but ultimately transient and empty. - Tommy"

Sounds like a belief to me!! ha

Thanks, everyone, Tommy especially. If there's one thing I got out of my own participation, it's a reminder of what unwholesome mind states feel like--as if I needed that!

Tommy, I'm in wholehearted agreement.

<rant>
I'm not the only one around who _doesn't _have their panties in a bunch over the AF thing. I don't give a crap what your practice is post 4th, so long as you aren't hurting anybody. What is hurting people is folks in the pragmatic community haven't figured out how to live and let live, and it's screwing up our forums. If you want to practice AF or siddhis or mahamudra it's all groovy with me, just get the insight trip finished first and be f*cking nice to each other. If we can't figure out how to be respectful and kind to each other, our practice isn't worth anything anyhow.
</rant>

"... belief still shapes our experience of reality"

Absolutely. As do the usual human foibles, inconsistencies, doubts, suspicions, and so on. I'm one of those people who experienced the original Dharma Overground and resulting formation of Kenneth Folk Dharma. I've felt betrayed twice now. Why? Because my expectations were that the people in charge of these online forums were in some way superior or more perfect than me. I got angry and left DhO when AF seemed to take over. I got angry and left KFDh when Kenneth had what appeared to me to be a similar kind of transformation last fall. In both cases I now believe I was wrong. I've spent a lot of time examining what was happening inside of me during those two upsetting times and I realize that everyone, all of us, Daniel Ingram, Kenneth Folk and every other living human being, are imperfect and subject to the same forces and frail human qualities that I am. Perfection does not exist in this universe unless, I suppose, you're willing to let go and accept things just as they are. Things are, in a very important way, *perfect just as they are.*

So what's the point you ask? Just this: let them be. Just let them be who they are. Let them do what they do. Observe. You all practice vipassana so you know how to investigate and not attach. It is as much a part of your practice as anything else. It'll go a long way toward helping you to stop building sand castles on a beach because, as you know in your heart of hearts, the tide will come in and your castle will disappear.

Tommy,
Thanks for being the light of reason in this ocean of petty lunacy. So much insecurity around.

"Sounds like a belief to me!! ha -Yadid"

Don't believe your thoughts... except for this one!

I suspect this will be an unpopular post dropped into the middle of an otherwise uplifting thread. But as this is a discussion forum and the topic has arisen here, I'll go ahead and take the plunge.

"Tommy, Thanks for being the light of reason in this ocean of petty lunacy. So much insecurity around." -RevElev

You may be right, Rev. Maybe this is all a tempest in a teapot. Just a manifestation of pettiness and insecurity.

On the other hand, some things are worth opposing. And opposition need not be synonymous with pettiness, nor motivated by insecurity.

There is no place to plant your feet in any of this. Each of us has to follow his or her gut in deciding when to "live and let live" and when to speak out. I know it feels good to take the moral high road, but there is a place for remaining above the fray and there is a place for kicking ass and taking names. I don't claim to know the "right answer," so I have no choice but to follow my gut. My gut says that it would be a mistake for me to remain silent about my distaste for Actual Freedom when people are looking to me for guidance about these very issues. So, I risk being perceived as petty in order to fulfill what I consider to be my social obligation: I do not recommend that anyone pursue Actual Freedom. It is not, in my opinion, a legitimate contemplative option on a par with Buddhism, Advaita, Hinduism, Sufism, Contemplative Christianity, etc. It is, rather, an escapist, life denying distortion of true spirituality. And it is my belief that in every case, the world would be better off if the Actually Free came back to us, re-embraced their humanity and their compassion, and used their considerable gifts to teach humanity rather than "freedom from the human condition."

One man's opinion. Thanks for listening.

Kenneth,
I didn't mean to suggest any one individual was/is petty. These Buddhism/AF arguments just always remind me of school yard "my Dad could beat up your Dad" arguments. I certainly respect your opinion, and the right to express it and maintain control of your website.
I don't think I'm actually in a position to make an informed decision on this issue, we'll talk after I get 4th path;) I was merely agreeing with Tommy that
"This whole AF issue is creating division and unneccesary conflict in what is otherwise a peaceful and supportive community"
and wishing we could get back to supportive practice based discussion. But, families argue, because they care, and I guess this one is no exception.
Again, I meant no disrespect to anyone.
Thanks.

""What the thinker thinks, the prover proves" - Robert Anton Wilson

Something I've come to realize lately is that regardless of whether you're enlightened, AF, pre-Path or whatever, belief still shapes our experience of reality. If we believe strongly enough that something is true then we will find the evidence to support our belief, which is what the quote from Robert Anton Wilson points directly at.
"

You can't see what you are embedded in. If you are embedded in a culture, an institution, or belief system and have never stepped outside of it, you can't see who you are.

This is why "epic wins" or a change of environment are so powerful. They provide perspective and are massively empowering to allow you to transcend, if you choose, what you previously knew to the be the total truth. This applies to everything, not just spirituality.

cmarti: Beautiful - worth more than just a "Like".

I think one thing people are missing is *who* Kenneth is communicating to. He is communicating to his students who are asking their teacher to set out a path for them to follow.

The whole meta level of this conversation actually seems quite boring to me having watched this type of interaction for 17 years in the martial arts world. I find that "hard core" communities tend to burn themselves out as everyone strives and fails to achieve "total perfection". I find that rigid communities tend to be overly simplistic and intentionally blind themselves to the ever evolving complexity of truth. The right balance is one where everyone practices, everyone is imperfect, and everyone is there for every other individual. As a student, you shut up and listen to the people that are worth respecting. I trained in such a community for 10 years and saw 3 UFC world champions created this way.

By the way, whats so horribly wrong with a little bit of suffering? I'm awake in this moment and even if I suffer, its all that I have. Why chase these rigid ideals of no-suffering perfection? I love Kenneth's common statement of "basically, I'm fine.".

Realize that our minds are a merely a sampling, a compressed representation of total reality. Our brains are extremely efficient at pattern matching and simplifying that reality, but you'll never directly experience the Whole Truth. We can just live closer and closer to the truth in each moment. As long as the world keeps computing, karma keeps unraveling, there will be no perfection. Perfection is just a concept.

And listen, I'm just a random noob baby Buddha, but at least I know that right now I'm awake, and basically, I'm fine.

Amen, Chris

Yadid - I agree, I'm not trying to say that my beliefs are in any way superior to what anyone else chooses to believe.

Kenneth - I actually agree with every point you make and respect your honesty and willingness to put your cards on the table with this. I understand why you've come out and spoken about this and I agree with your reasons because you're a dharma teacher and, as Justin says, you're communicating with your students, me included, so I apologize if my words were in any way disrespectful. At present I choose to remain silent and stay "above the fray" in this case, but, as is clear in many of my posts on the DhO, I'm not averse to "kicking ass and taking names" when it comes to this stuff. I just wanted to encourage people to get back to their own practice and I apologize if this came across as taking a moral high ground.

"What the thinker thinks, the prover proves" - Robert Anton Wilson

I like!