New Video: Mahamudra and the Joy of Failure

Just posted a new video, recorded during a Skype session with a yogi and posted with her permission. I really like this one. Let me know what you think!

kennethfolkdharma.com/2011/07/mahamudra-and-the-joy-of-failure/

Kenneth

It's taking a while to sink in (we covered the same material in our last meeting) but in the moments when it really comes to mind, this is a very useful teaching.

It's becoming apparent that the idea that I should be experiencing something other than what I am is in fact the cause of much of the tension in my experience. Tuning into the lucidity, brightness and looseness of what already is seems a good way to break out of that, however, if I find myself trying to create either of those, rather than experience what already is, more tension results.

Some additional info / tips for cultivating this are available here:
tinyurl.com/6hy5tno

This is on the google books site - "Fearless Simplicity: The Dzogchen Way of Living Freely in a Complex World"

More good stuff:
wearebuddhamind.blogspot.com/2009/10/tul...e-interview-for.html

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche - Interview for Vajradhatu Sun, 1985

Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche - Interview for Vajradhatu Sun, 1985

wearebuddhamind.blogspot.com/2009/10/tul...e-interview-for.html

Nice recording, listened to it a couple of times.

But I just have to ask: At 14:20 in the audio, there's this jolting interlude:

Student: OK... are you ... are you, like, working your psychic powers right now?
Kenneth: Yes.
Student: That's pretty good. (laughs)
Kenneth: That's really not very psychic, it's just the normal neural resonance between two people.
Student: OK.

I realize that this was a parenthesis in the conversation, and I can appreciate that they didn't want to dwell on it, so the student accepted the explanation of "normal neural resonance". Which is, of course, just restating things in other, no less mysterious language.

So what was that all about?

Cheers,
Florian

New guy here with a question on Mahamudra. How does the Mahamudra practice (without noting) fit in with the three speed transmission model?
It feels a little like third gear when I do it, but it involves the attentive listening for something not there. So I use a little bit of effort. Not third gear.
Then it does not require focus on the self sense, so it does not fit 2nd gear.

Hi Gary, welcome! Yes it is 3rd gear or at least will evolve into 3rd gear. Over time you may notice subtle aspects that you are able to further let go of. As Tsoknyi Rinpoche says, it can be useful from time to time to notice the aspects of Looseness, Brightness, and Lucidity to sort of recalibrate yourself.

Have fun!

-Justin

@Florian - It might be similar to a process of sympathetic sensing of insight stages that Antero reports here: kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/46...set=40&maxResults=20

Hi villum,

Yes, sounds similar.

So, what do you think? What place should sympathetic sensing/neural resonance/emptiness vibes/transmission/shaktipat (to mention a few more terms for this phenomenon) have in formal teacher-student relationships? Or in yogi relationships in general?

I'll be a bit more explicit and admit that listening to those few seconds of the undeniably interesting and useful recording *really* creeped me out.

This is why I think a discussion would be good to have. Inventing fancy-sounding names for this phenomenon is not the same as having a discussion and finding a place for this in our practice and relationship with one another, regardless if it's a "spiritual friend/fellow meditator" relationship or a formal teacher-student thing.

And if I'm simply over-reacting, I'm fine with having that pointed out to me, too. (provided the point is well argued)

Cheers,
Florian

edit: added qualification to having "you're overreacting" pointed out to me.

I was of the impression it is simply something that may or may not happen, regardless of anyone's intentions. I've spent many a discussion with a teacher (in other traditions too, even those that were not about enlightenment) being awash in their energy (or the energy of their deity, in other contexts).

If the student is the type prone to guru-worship (or deity worship for that matter), it will be motivating at first and then eventually seen through as part of the process.

If you are implying there can be some abuse of this bonding, sure, but there can be abuse of power without any "energy transmission" at all. I don't think it creates any more of a potential trap than all the other traps we all encounter along the way (being attached to specific technique or dogma, thinking we are in control of the process, thinking our kind of enlightenment is true and everyone else is doing it wrong, etc etc)

@giragirasol "... it will be motivating at first and then eventually seen through as part of the process."

Hm. Aren't you leaving out the middle part there? (Read "Enlightenment Blues" by Andre van der Braak for a particularly harrowing description of that middle part) That part the motivation is gone, but the insight is not in sight, as it were? It's a bit like the A&P and subsequent dark night, isn't it?

Once we know what to expect, when it's out in the open, talked about, generally known, then that's obviously better than the alternative where it's seen as special and precious, mysterious and glorious and a great place to put projections and freakish expectations, and never talked about openly.

I'm *not* saying Kenneth and the student in that recording did anything bad or wrong or creepy or anything.

Something popped up and it's not mentioned - that's what's creepy, the not mentioning it part. That's why I'm mentioning it. And even if I'm the only one who has a hang-up around this: thanks in advance to anyone offering their take on the subject. My appreciation is assured.

Cheers,
Florian

It is a great thing to talk about openly indeed. Not familiar with Braak's book, but I'll poke around and see what he says.

Certainly in my experience the harrowing stuff happens regardless of whether there's a guru-type relationship, an inner guru, a Holy Guardian Angel, a deity or whatever other personified guide. That's where the lessons are learned no?

I look forward to hearing from others on this too.

(Ona)

Thanks Justin. It still does not make sense to me. "The very act of doing or intending anything" does not fit in the 3rd gear model. I can't do Mahamudra without intending. And I can do third gear very well. (It's my favorite gear.)
I'll keep checking it out.
gary

From twitter:

karengifford: I had a life-changing exp when I received shakipat from a teacher in a v formal way. I'm grateful for it.
mindmonkey (me): thanks!
mindmonkey: What are your thoughts - should it be treated like something very intimate, and hushed over, not mentioned in polite circles?
mindmonkey: Because that's what seems to be happening. There's nothing but slightly embarrassed silence (or so I interpret it). How come?

Well, I'll shut up for now, I think I've said enough. Let's see how this discussion develops. (I realize it's a week-end, after all).

Cheers,
Florian

"Nice recording, listened to it a couple of times.

But I just have to ask: At 14:20 in the audio, there's this jolting interlude:

Student: OK... are you ... are you, like, working your psychic powers right now?
Kenneth: Yes.
Student: That's pretty good. (laughs)
Kenneth: That's really not very psychic, it's just the normal neural resonance between two people.
Student: OK.

I realize that this was a parenthesis in the conversation, and I can appreciate that they didn't want to dwell on it, so the student accepted the explanation of "normal neural resonance". Which is, of course, just restating things in other, no less mysterious language.

So what was that all about?

Cheers,
Florian"

monkeymind: Have you done two player noting? For me it is very common that I'll sync up with the other person or vice versa and be able to reflect their experience in my experience. I'd say its more like synchronizing mind states based on verbal and body language. It doesn't seem creepy to me. Its just our normal behavior to sync up with people to try to better communicate and empathize with them.

"Thanks Justin. It still does not make sense to me. "The very act of doing or intending anything" does not fit in the 3rd gear model. I can't do Mahamudra without intending. And I can do third gear very well. (It's my favorite gear.)
I'll keep checking it out.
gary"

Gary: For me, the 'listening' is used when I sense some subtle or not-so-subtle resistance to experience, especially resistance to wakefulness itself. Once the efforting of 'listening' has brought about brightness and openness, I often let go of the efforting/focus on looseness to open up even more.

A great suggestion I received from Antero on 3rd gear was to see if you feel like you could sit in that one spot forever and feel perfectly content. If there is any subtle restlessness or resistance, then that is something to look at. If there is no restlessness or resistance, then there is nothing more to be done. Welcome home.

The technique is especially effective at dissolving any narrative related anxiety or tension. Sometimes I'm just a bit too worked up from over-thinking to go straight to 3rd gear. I have too much thought-momentum and I resist being awake. So 20 seconds or so of Mahamudra noting shakes things loose and changes the momentum of the mind.

@orasis - the phenomenon is not creepy. The dense silence about it is - that sense that people don't want to talk about it, that's what's creepy.

So thanks for speaking up. Do you think this "synching up" is what's often called "shaktipat" or "transmission"? How do you think it works in the scenario where many people are synching up to one single person? Why isn't there more discussion about this - about the potential good sides as well as the potential traps?

Cheers,
Florian

(edit: spelling)

One guess why it hasn't been discussed much. Things tend to come up when someone describes them in a practice log. And there are no dharma-teacher practice logs (currently).
It is one of the phenomena i plan to investigate at some point.

@villum thanks for chipping in. I'm trying to get the discussion going over at the DhO, as well (partly because I don't want to continue hijacking this thread, partly because I'm hoping for more participants to join in):

dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussio...ards/message/2209330

Cheers,
Florian

Another thought on this, Florian. You seem to be thinking about it more as a thing a teacher does to a student. I suppose that may be. I guess I always thought of it more like the teacher may be constantly radiating some energy, and if the student vibes off it, then voila. Not like the teacher forces it on the student. In my own experience it's not something you'd even notice if you weren't open to it or ready for it or whatever (whether you knew you were ready or not). Even if a teacher sat in the front of a room and "gave transmission" in a deliberate way I'd be really surprised if everyone in the room "received" it. Some would, some wouldn't, and it would be far more about their own phase of practice (ie A&P type stage or whatever) than about anything the teacher was doing. Does that make sense?

@giragirasol - in a sense, yes, people who have it happen often have a special role there. The "radiators" if you will.

For one, they'll want to know more about it, I imagine, if only to be able to answer questions consistently and to the benefit of those who ask what just happened.

Then, there is something in the human make-up which will tend to view the "radiators" as special people. I don't think that's bad or anything, just something to be aware of.

Thanks for the responses so far, very interesting. Keep them coming (here or over at the DhO).

Cheers,
Florian