Relating Buddhism and the PCE

"... there is no better way to condition future awakeness than by being awake now"

That's pretty much the way, isn't it?

Hi Matt,

You have some good questions, but let me ask you a few as well.

When you practice direct mode and what predominates are the brahmaviharas, are they mental experiences, body sensations, or something else? Is the peace a mental experience, a body sensation, or something else?

Overall, the PCE is not related to high equanimity, is not related to formations (in the MCTB sense), and is not related to some kind of nondistinguishing of the sense-doors. The PCE, attained via direct mode, works like this: all emotions and feelngs are kinds of body sensations or aspects of body sensations, and in a PCE, those kinds of sensations or aspects of sensations are no more. Everything else falls out of this absence.

"

Is using the term "being" referring to the same thing - the arising of a subject-object duality? EndInSight cannot transfer his experience of "being" to me directly, leaving us with a conundrum."

Chris, let me ask you a question. Genuinely not because I want to argue, but because I really can't fathom your view and wonder if I'm just missing something that you get.

Some days you wake up and you're in a good mood, and some days you wake up and you're in a bad mood. Imagine a future for yourself where you wake up in a crippling, horrible, depressed mood...and imagine it remains that way from now until the end of your life. If that (pain, displeasure, whatever) isn't suffering, doesn't that mean that you regard that outcome as no worse in terms of suffering than the outcome where you wake up and feel the normal way that you do, for the rest of your life? If you regard it as no worse in terms of suffering, why not?

As for your question..."being" means "feelings" which turn out (according to me) to be identical to the most subtle subject / object duality to be overcome. And "feelings" mean pleasure / displeasure / neutrality. I can't transfer my understanding of why feelings are connected to the stuff I say they're connected to (that requires the experience of a PCE, probably) but we both have a pretty good grasp on what the word means.

EndInSight, I was referring only to the inexact nature of language when it is used to convey experience. That's all. I wasn't trying to convey any meaning beyond that. We can still talk about a lot of things but we always have to keep the inexact nature of words in mind. That means we haves to be careful to define our terms and agree on their meaning before we can have a truly meaningful exchange.

So, as another example, I cannot in any way have access to your experience of "red." I know what my experience of "red" is but you and I simply cannot exchange those experiences. All the words we might use are at best very rough approximations that really don't "touch" the actual "red" experience that plays out in our minds.

Make sense?

Makes sense.

Chris, did you pass over my question about suffering because you were uninterested in responding, or just by accident? You seem insistent that you have some kind of insight that renders pain unimportant. I don't have any such insight, but I haven't been practicing as long as you. I don't think 4th path yields such an insight, and I don't think you believe that either (?). So, if my goal is the end of suffering, it seems that I should consider the possibility that you know something that I don't which hasn't been covered by my experience with vipassana and is in a different direction than the PCE.

We can continue on the forum or by PM if you're willing, whichever you like.

I missed your question.

Here's the thing: I'm not claiming that I don't have pain and suffering. What I experience is that a lot of suffering has been reduced by a practice that allows me to observe myself, the so-called "internal" stuff, far more objectively, without reactivity. This objectivity has allowed me to see the processes that cause suffering and to have a far better understanding of how they work. (I feel like I'm repeating myself as this is pretty much what I've been posting for some time in this topic.) Anyway, being able to observe these processes clearly, what is essentially dependent origination, appears to rob the process of energy and reactivity. It's as if, having observed a thing closely over and over and over again, it has become predictable and no longer painful and not based in ignorance. I'm driven to openness, allowing these processes to occur, feeling them fully, and letting them pass.

This experience has been deepening of late and did not occur much at all pre-4th path, assuming that's what I have. I have no idea how this is related to that other than it is what seems to have allowed for the openness and objectivity that ensued. When a person can honestly, without shame, covering up, anger, guilt or otherwise reacting, observe their experience closely and with real intimacy, good things seem to follow. This is not a new story. I think it's pretty typical of the folks I talk to who have a commensurate level of practice.

My practice goal is not to end all suffering, frankly, but as Kenneth posted earlier here, to be awake right now, in this very second, as often as I can muster. That's really, really hard but it seems to get easier with the kind of open, non-reactive, interconnected, compassionate, intimate awareness that has been growing within me, centered in the solar plexus.

Character limit reached

Also, I attribute a lot of what has occurred in my practice to be related to non-dual awareness. Luckily, I had that open up fairly early in my practice. That's a horse of a very different color in comparison top vipassana practice but it has been a powerful realization for me and, I would venture to say, for everyone who accesses it. This is one of what is called here "3rd gear" practices and in my experience it positively affects the kind of thing I described in my last comment. Knowing as if by intuition that what's being experienced is empty is an important realization that further robs energy from an otherwise reactivity based in ignorance.

I once said on these boards that vipassana/1st gear practices are all about "do." 2nd gear practices are all about "see," and 3rd gear is all about "be." I still think that's pretty accurate and I also think all three are important, at least in my experience.

Hope this helps, EndInSight.

Being awake right now, framed as the end goal, is wonderful. Thank you. It is 100% concrete, it is 100% feasible, and since it is totally personal, it doesn't matter of my definition of "awakeness" doesn't match another's definition of "awakeness" or my definition of awakeness changes over time.

Thank you for triggering a few more moments of wakefulness. It is the most precious gift.

"Hi Matt,

You have some good questions, but let me ask you a few as well.

When you practice direct mode and what predominates are the brahmaviharas, are they mental experiences, body sensations, or something else? Is the peace a mental experience, a body sensation, or something else?...

...The PCE, attained via direct mode, works like this: all emotions and feelngs are kinds of body sensations or aspects of body sensations, and in a PCE, those kinds of sensations or aspects of sensations are no more. Everything else falls out of this absence."

Thanks, EndInSight

That clarifies things a bit for me. I think I know what you mean now regarding feelings / emotions as body sensations and why it's being described in that manner.

Regarding your questions,

When I do the direct mode practice, I start off with gentle attention on the shoulders for a few breaths... then I observe the body as a big chunk with that same gentle attention. Initially I seem to go through a quick phase that seems concentration-like, then the disruptions in the body quickly settle and become still. At this point it's as though a circuit has been completed. Where formerly there were disruptions within the body, now it seems very open and clear and still. Interference patterns have ceased, seems appropriate.

I've experienced basically two flavors when doing this practice. When I do this alone in my apt, a joyful sort of happiness seems borne of the absence of disturbing sensations. There is a deep still sense of acceptance and openness, very stable.

When I do this practice around friends / family, the happiness borne of the absence of disturbances is less marked, joy related to others happiness seems more predominant, a warm loving-kindness wishing others well arises. A deep sense of empathetic resonance with others, that can move one to help others. There is equanimity, as a balancing factor.

Are they mental experiences, body sensations, or something else.. the peace seems to come from the absence of disturbances, the brahmaviharas seem to arise from this, I suppose they may have both physical / mental qualities that arise from them, but I'm tempted to say they are something else because they seem to arise so naturally, even though it's clear they can be cultivated.

It is also possible, that maybe I'm just getting concentrated and mistaking certain sensations for the brahmaviharas. I'd be interested to hear how others describe them. They seem to be what is revealed when all the noisy, rough disturbing sensations are stilled and cease.

metta!

Justin

Edit: P.S.. I definitely notice the immediacy of experience, the vibrant colors, and fascination with patterns when I do this practice. "Seeing like an artist" is a great way to put it. ^__^

"I don't see words serve to obfuscate, but see it as a measure of my insight. As in zen koans, the students are asked to show their insight to unlock the riddles.

If you don't want to develop your insight to see what twofold Emptiness means, then you won't unlock the meaning.

You may ask what good is insight if I am comfortable in my practice already, well some yogis want to develop insight further, that's all. So words being discussed here serve that purpose. "

One can only see as far as their held concepts allow. How far do your concepts allow you to see?

Edit: Don't bother replying. It would only add to the obfuscating miasma of words on this topic. Instead, practice shedding words & concepts by sitting in silence.

My best wishes to you. /\

"Are they mental experiences, body sensations, or something else.. the peace seems to come from the absence of disturbances, the brahmaviharas seem to arise from this, I suppose they may have both physical / mental qualities that arise from them, but I'm tempted to say they are something else because they seem to arise so naturally, even though it's clear they can be cultivated.

"

I really believe that you are uncovering the peace, not cultivating it. The peace is the diamond in the rubbish tip, always there always available.
The cultivating bit involves weeding out the ' noisy, rough disturbing sensations. '

Steve.

Wonderful post, Kenneth! I agree entirely - I think the only difference is what I consider to be an awakened moment. Great practice advice as well!

I found something kind of funny actually: "Find out in this moment what is true, what doesn't hurt, what is pure and untouched even as life storms on."

Ironically that sounds like the opposite of seeing the impermanence and unsatisfactoriness/tension in all sensations. Without going into which one is 'correct' or not, can you go into how to reconcile those two?

Belief has a non-intuitive quality similar to seeking -- it can very effectively hide that which it wants desperately to find.

"Also, I attribute a lot of what has occurred in my practice to be related to non-dual awareness. Luckily, I had that open up fairly early in my practice. That's a horse of a very different color in comparison top vipassana practice but it has been a powerful realization for me and, I would venture to say, for everyone who accesses it. This is one of what is called here "3rd gear" practices and in my experience it positively affects the kind of thing I described in my last comment. Knowing as if by intuition that what's being experienced is empty is an important realization that further robs energy from an otherwise reactivity based in ignorance.

I once said on these boards that vipassana/1st gear practices are all about "do." 2nd gear practices are all about "see," and 3rd gear is all about "be." I still think that's pretty accurate and I also think all three are important, at least in my experience.

Hope this helps, EndInSight.

"

Thanks, Chris. I understand your position a bit better now.

I have some experience with the kind of 3rd gear experience you're describing. At the time it seemed very important, but was always difficult to stabilize, and so I never got to experience it in any regular, reliable way, just at random intervals.

From my memory of it, I don't think that I would be satisfied with it compared to what I'm doing now, but I have no idea whether regular access to it would have changed my opinion. And unfortunately, I don't seem to have any aptitude for it (I tried regularly for some time, post-4th, and had very little to show for it besides a few sporadic experiences), so I think it will remain forever mysterious to me.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Over the last few interchanges I feel like I've gotten a clear understanding of where you're coming from, and I'm glad for that.

"I found something kind of funny actually: "Find out in this moment what is true, what doesn't hurt, what is pure and untouched even as life storms on."

Ironically that sounds like the opposite of seeing the impermanence and unsatisfactoriness/tension in all sensations. Without going into which one is 'correct' or not, can you go into how to reconcile those two?"

Hi Beoman,

There may not be a contradiction after all. The reason to see that things are unsatisfactory is so that we will stop seeking solace there. If there is no peace to be found in our habitual way of being what should we do? The answer seems simple: we should look elsewhere.

Peace can be found by turning toward something that does not change: our buddha nature, aka the essential nature of our own minds. This has been described as empty yet aware. Mysterious and hard to imagine, yes, but it can be recognized. Each moment of recognizing the sweetness of our essential nature brings a kind of peace that can only be found when we stop being distracted by the manifest world. The idea is not to negate manifestation or even to separate it from the unmanifest, but rather to see that everything has the same empty yet cognizant nature.

As you say, without going into which is better, it's enough to point out that the method I am describing is that advocated by the Mahamudra and Dzogchen traditions of Buddhism. For me, this kind of practice falls within the realm of 3rd Gear practices, i.e., practices that take the goal as the path; every moment of seeing the essential nature of mind is a moment of perfect awakeness.

EndInSight, thank YOU for the conversation.

I can see no better way to end this that to read the second paragraph of Kenneth's last comment. It appears to describe what I've been trying to describe. The manifest (relative) is indeed not separate from the un-manifest (absolute). Forms spring from an ever-present emptiness. They are the same thing. Peaceful, yes, and ultimately revealing of what truly is.

Kenneth: "Of the two, it seemed that AnEternalNow was the freer, i.e., less attached to how others would perceive the exchange, an irony I could not fail to appreciate."

My impression was just that Tarin seemed far from 'free' and very much invested and attached to defending his position and 'religion'. The whole thing seemed very forceful and rather unpleasant and uninteresting. I can't see why AF is still being entertained. Confused, unsophisticated rubbish.

"Kenneth: "Of the two, it seemed that AnEternalNow was the freer, i.e., less attached to how others would perceive the exchange, an irony I could not fail to appreciate."

My impression was just that Tarin seemed far from 'free' and very much invested and attached to defending his position and 'religion'. The whole thing seemed very forceful and rather unpleasant and uninteresting. I can't see why AF is still being entertained. Confused, unsophisticated rubbish. "

Hehe, luckily impressions don't affect the facts...

speaking of tarin not appearing to be 'free': an alternate explanation is simply that the facts don't change. so if somebody questions the validity of your facts, or tries to take your knowledge and modify it inappropriately to fit into their own, you will point out where they are being incorrect. and you might seem uncompromising in that regard. but facts are not compromising. (imagine someone telling you that stream entry is completely unreasonable, and it sounds like it would make you deluded and unhealthily suppressing of emotions.)

This stuff is fascinating, because there are so many parallels to actualism/actual freedom[1][2][3], yet many divergences too[4], and lots of passion about it[5][6]. Without going into that debate yet again, it will be interesting to see if all roads will indeed lead to the same place... and whether they do or not it's up to each person to see that for themselves. But I think discussion does help, so long as we don't get bored with it or start quarreling.

[1] compare: "By being here as-this-body one finds that this moment in time has no duration as in now and then '“ because the immediate is the ultimate '“ and that this place in space has no distance as in here and there '“ for the relative is the absolute." ( actualfreedom.com.au/richard/selectedcor...nce/sc-universe2.htm ).
[2] "our buddha nature, aka the essential nature of our own minds" - could that simply be apperception, i.e. the experience in a PCE?
[3] good practice advice for actualists and non-actualists alike: "What I experience is that a lot of suffering has been reduced by a practice that allows me to observe myself, the so-called "internal" stuff, far more objectively, without reactivity. This objectivity has allowed me to see the processes that cause suffering and to have a far better understanding of how they work."
[4] e.g. about love + compassion
[5] e.g. adam_west's reply
[6] and indeed, the resemblances to other practices might be just what prompts someone to be very explicit and extra-precise when delineating which is which, and what leads to what, lest people get confused; just look at what happened with Buddhism!

Also, perhaps I should have provided this link earlier, but here is an interesting take by Nick on what path + fruition means (hinting at a relation between them and PCEs): thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2011/07/...hening-fruition.html .

EDIT: read the last part especially - it's notes from a talk from a nun (Ayya Khema) who talks about all four 10-fetter model paths, and how to attain each one. found some good nuggets of practice advice in there. here's a choice quote on what arahat-attainment/non-attainment (in Ayya Khema's interpretation) is like:

'Taking the next step amounts to the same guidelines. Maybe there is that slight difference that the mind resolves that this person of mind and body is willing to disappear. Totally and utterly willing to disappear. No nothing that can hold them, nothing that needs to be done. Nothing that is important, that person is willing to disappear. And as the person is willing to disappear, there is that in the fruit moment, the path moment being something that one can't explain, because it is a non-occurrence, this is what the technical term is, in the fruit moment, there is that feeling of having disappeared, and having disappeared creates enormous bliss. One may think and the Buddha also talked about the that worldings may think it is dreadful to disappear, but actually it's marvelous, because with that disappearance which may feel like '¦..(pause)'¦hm..falling into ..'¦.falling in to..'¦no that is not true'¦.this is very hard to describe'¦.I was going to say falling into the depths of a hole but that is not quite it. Maybe falling into the depths of a cloud and disappearing in there, but even that is not quite it, but that is the best anyway, that is happening right now, with that nothing that happens in the world can ever have really close impact."

"I can't see why AF is still being entertained. Confused, unsophisticated rubbish. "

Adam, having a PCE will make this a non-speculative matter and clear things up for you quite quickly. (I assume you haven't yet.)

Not because it will magically turn you into an actualist, but because it's an experience, it's possible to attain through typical contemplative methods, it relates to attainments in the 8-stage model of enlightenment that we've been using on KFD, and it's very striking and insight-producing.

And because Kenneth endorses the experience as well.

"This stuff is fascinating, because there are so many parallels to actualism/actual freedom[1][2][3], yet many divergences too[4], and lots of passion about it[5][6]. "

Beoman, if you're interested in investigating parallels outside of the suttas, I've found there are a surprising amount in Zen (though not in all forms / by all teachers).

"To study the Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be enlightened by all things of the universe. To be enlightened by all things of the universe is to cast off the body and mind of the self as well as those of others. Even the traces of enlightenment are wiped out, and life with traceless enlightenment goes on forever and ever." --Dogen

Just speculating, but I find it striking that Dogen emphasizes that it's the multiplicity (all the things of the universe) that is enlightening, not the unity behind it (buddha nature / emptiness). Related to the line of thinking I was pursuing in my practice thread. As I see it, PCE = immersion in the multiplicity.

HI EndinSight!

I wonder if you would phenomenologically describe a PCE for me, and explain your take on what it actually is? I'm asking becuase from what I've seen it looks a lot like accounts of Tibetan Buddhist Rigpa.

Thanks,

Adam. edit for spelling.

Adam, please have a look at my practice thread for a long description / explanation.

A short one is this: in a PCE, there is no affect / emotion / feeling / pleasure / pain / neutrality, and without those things, there is absolutely no dualistic perception, and with absolutely no dualistic perception, one experiences the 6 senses as nirvana here-and-now (or something close to it).