Retreat Experiences vs. Hard-Core Dharma

"OMG! I really have no idea what you guys are talking about sometimes. "

Thats usually a safe indicator that the one you are listening to has also no idea what he is talking about. (Unfortunately in this case it's me)

It's probably because you are always thinking about sex, sex, sex instead of learning your vocabulary! )(what all westerners do, but no easterners. they have no time, because they have to think about what the westerners think. which is sex)

What I wanted to say is: The brain is consisting of different centers that are working together but are also independent. Integration is not happening necessarily. This means if you develop one part lets say consciousness you don't necessarily develop another.

That you get enlightened will probably not let you be a good footballplayer, speak chinese, hold perfect lectures, be a good businessman, have social competence, be a good father/partner, know how to repair an oldtimer.

That's why it is possible that someone is enlightened and is an alcoholic, is a bad teacher, can not construct buildings, is sexual abusive, dies of cancer, is psychological incompetent, has a naive worldview, has a depression or is incompetent in other fields.

The I would be this central that integrates everything. And it seems to be there.

But as the buddha surprisingly found out, it does not exist. And this is what neuroscience is telling us.

So whatever one wants to be, you better start now to train it and develop your skills, because enlightenment will not do the work for you.

If one wants to win the Red Bull AirRace, learn how to fly AND practice meditation. If one is suffering from psychological problems get professional help AND practice meditation. If your girlfriend is constantly annoying you make a couples therapy AND go on with practice. All this possibilities/shortcuts are not on these maps, they are on other maps.

"That's why it is possible that someone is enlightened and is an alcoholic, is a bad teacher, can not construct buildings, is sexual abusive, dies of cancer, is psychological incompetent, has a naive worldview, has a depression or is incompetent in other fields."

I would have to admit that I don't agree with this perspective of enlightnement. To be fair though, im not an authority on the subject. However im sure the buddha implied that compasion springs forth from wisdom. Or maybe even his insight into conditioned co-production formed the basis of his ideas about morality.

Its not that morality is simply training wheels to be discarded after enlightenment is reached by that it is impossible for the enlightened mind to act unskillfully due to its insight into cause and effect.

So I can see that an enlightened person could get cancer, but couldnt be sexually abusive or even have a naive worldview wich tends to be egocentric. Depression is tricky because it still not clear if its simply an ilness like cancer, or is devloped thorugh negative thought processes?!

I guess there might be an argument that people can drop from from enlightenment and lose the insight and then act unskillfully?!

Regarding, not understanding what other people are talking about:
:
Result: 3 A4 pages of generalized descriptions. Against ten thousands of how to treat athlete's foot.

I am still trying to figure this out = )

Hmm, one can not know if somebody is really enlightened, if he is said to be, or he says he is, but I am refering to concrete cases of famous teachers in the west, who had these problems and I tried to find an explanation for that (We could fill in names to make it clearer, but I hesitate).
@With the sexual abuse I meant 2 cases of the abuse of spiritual authority. Teachers having sexual relationships with their students betraying their wife etc. Both resigned (For me personally the word abuse is too tuff here but it has been used by themselves)

If one can drop from enlightenment this would be an alternative explanation.

Another explanation would be that none of these famous teachers was really enlightened.

I can not talk about enlightenment because of a lack of experience but my impression is that enlightened people are pretty human in a positive and negative way. There is some research on this by Jeff Martin (Buddhist Geeks 224, 225) wich indicates in the same direction.

@ 3 A4 pages : A4 is a format used in europe it means the same as: you can print the maps on only 3 pages, while you can find 1 0000 pages of scientific research for simple unimportant diseases I probably forgot to explain myself because I am european and only had to think about sex, sex, sex (naive worldview) LOL sad thing is in my case he is right. Anyway it's naive

"Another explanation would be that none of these famous teachers was really enlightened." - since many people arent talking about what it is, how to define it, or how to get there, how does anyone know? I have had teachers who really honestly thought that A&P was an enlightenment experience and that therefore it was no big deal, not transformative and therefore something to not work towards - unless people sit down and compare their experiences there is no yardstick. Its like Daniel's point about 'what are their credentials' in MCTB. Its a good point! How do we know someone is a teacher? At this point other than their word all I can go by is how many of their students are successful in getting to where I want to go. When I see groups of people practicing for years and not getting very far towards being free, thats when I start to question things!
- I also agree that people are still human, of course

The most solid definition of enlightenment I have seen is Bill Hamilton's "Unconscious mental processes become conscious". No other definition I've seen seem to bear up in reality. So, an "enlightened person" has all the tools to understand their own motivations, the ability to see their impulses (good or bad) as they arise... but how they then choose to *act* on those impulses remains open. You could call this "residual karma"- the momentum of your life still rolls onward- the only difference is that you are aware of it. Enlightenment doesn't spare you from moral choices. (Actual 4th-pathers may want to weigh in on this )

The idea that enlightenment makes you instantly incapable of ever doing harm is probably a fantasy. And even if it's true, we should probably stay on the safe side- assume that it's a fantasy, and keep trying to be good even if you're an arahant!