Post Buddhist Geeks Conference

This thread is for ideas, questions and inspirations following the BG conference.

Here are some questions that came up for me that apply to the KFD community:

What are the up/downsides of an online community vs a brick and mortar sangha?

Is the emergence of a "homegrown" Buddhism in the West a good development, or are we throwing away too much of Eastern Buddhism because it doesn't fit well with our culture?

Is enlightenment a biological process? In other words, could we really build an enlightenment machine someday?

Anywho - there are tons of other thoughts and questions that came up for me. I'm sure there were for others. Any thoughts?

I also sensed an interesting question hovering over the conference of the ethics of an enlightenment machine. We take it for granted that the goal is to awaken all sentient beings but this is a value that was handed down from the moment the Buddha decided to teach. The premise is admittedly fantastical, but we might be closer than we realize.

related to the biological evidence of enlightenment, this question came up for me after Kelly McGonigal's talk. She displayed some brain imagery (from a paper by Norman Farb published in 2007) that showed how the experiential part of the brain was activated in experienced meditators (1000+ hours) whereas in non meditators greater activity was measured in the narrative part of the brain. She also displayed similar images from a later study and I got the impression here that people who took an 8 week MBSR course got similar benefits to those of the experienced meditators from the previous study (again Farb, 2010 I think).

Did anybody read the actual studies and can tell me how much of a difference (if at all) existed between the experienced meditator group and the 8 week group? Also, Kelly's talk created the impression that the disconnect between the experiential and narrative parts of the brain and the creation of a new default state network is the biological cause behind awakening. Any other studies, possibly on people who attained some paths to support that?

"... could we really build an enlightenment machine someday?

JMHO, of course, but the idea that a machine could induce awakening makes me chuckle. Think about pharmaceuticals. We can induce bliss and out of body experiences and all manner of states. What I suspect we may never be able to do is induce the understanding and integration of states into stages and subsequently into true awakening.

Also, I think it's easy to discount the vast complexity of the human brain with its almost infinite number of interconnecting parts, always changing.

Maybe were already in an enlightenment machine!

Wheel of life, Karma, conditionality!?

Downsides of online sangha: If the majority of communication is non verbal, then our ability to help each other is limited. So much is communicated in the way people talk, act and behave in the face of adversity on a day to day basis. Talking about paths is great and provides much insperation, but also having a cup of tea with a friend or helping someone out in a tricky situation, is great lesson and teaching in the dharma.

Are 'We' throwing away too much from the east: Buddhism in the west is still a very broad church (if thats the right term!) I think some throw away too much, and reduce buddhist teaching to simple psychological sticking plasters. Where as some hold on to too much and retain a monastic lifestyle, not eating food in the aftrenoon and all that sort of stuff.

With no unified code of practice or presentation of the dharma, each group has to be looked at on it own merits.

I agree that a physical machine that manipulates some biochemical system is unlikely to produce results but I do believe that technology can accelerate the entire process. A software based enlightenment machine could function on two dimensions: efficacy and scale. Let's imagine that mighty Noting could be improved upon, for example by some software system that could guess if you are ripe for a path and encourage you to go for it - this would improve efficacy. However even if efficacy does not improve, scale has no limit (other than infrastructure to handle Dark Night Fails). A big piece if this us a cultural marketing issue, basically the delivery of enlightenment meeting people exactly where they are.

I think the machine has already been built. It's just version 1.0.

Ed76: These are great points. Perhaps this community wouldn't have needed to exist if the first generation of now kfd 4th pathers had recieved the support they needed from their local communities after their initial openings. If normalization of these concepts continues to make progress and the scale of pragmatic dharma practice increases then perhaps this forum can eventually obsolete itself once the in person support networks are established.

"Did anybody read the actual studies and can tell me how much of a difference (if at all) existed between the experienced meditator group and the 8 week group?"

Eran, here's the original study PDF:

www.aclab.ca/publications/uploadedPubs/F...7%20scan%20paper.pdf

Is the emergence of a "homegrown" Buddhism in the West a good development, or are we throwing away too much of Eastern Buddhism because it doesn't fit well with our culture?
I don't think so. A great deal of what we consider "Buddhism" was adopted to fit the culture in which it appeared, so adapting to a different culture shouldn't diminish it in anyway. I think Buddhism is a set of simple truths, and methods to see those truths, as long as that remains, the rest is window dressing.
An enlightenment machine?
How about this one, the computer. 20 years ago there would have been No way I would have become aware of these methods, or found a group to help me muddle through it. Not the instant change I think you were getting at Ron, but pretty damn amazing from where I sit.

I've pondered the idea of software, that basically can either track patterns in meditation reports.. ( would be horribly complex to code, if possible at all ) or something more manageable.. that prompts specific questions to diagnose then offers focused advice for someone at their specific level. Perhaps this software could call up guided meditations, display a kasina, or maybe even read the output of an EEG to track brain activity and possibly identify concentrated states, etc. While there are clearly biological processes at work, awakening seems to also require energetic development, so i don't see an enlightenment machine in our near future : )

The buddhist geeks conference looks like it must have been a great gathering, I hope to attend one in the future!

metta!

Justin

"
Eran, here's the original study PDF:

www.aclab.ca/publications/uploadedPubs/F...7%20scan%20paper.pdf

"

Thanks, Chris. I read the 2010 paper (that's the one with the MBSR course) and there are several unqualified statements there about the relative activation levels of different parts of the brain. Sounds weird to me but it might make sense since the entire scale is relative to the resting state. Still, so much of this reads like chinese... it's hard to make any definite conclusions.

From my experience a great way to quickly improve a system is to gather analytics data. Practice journals are a great first step for this.

"The buddhist geeks conference looks like it must have been a great gathering, I hope to attend one in the future!"

This conference was a really good idea. Seeing people face to face and discussing things like this in person was very fulfilling in a way that I don't think can be duplicated on a forum.

I would love to see the momentum of the conference continue, and have small gatherings of people in different parts of the country. We don't have to have a full conference in order to enjoy some fellowship! There could be a midwestern BG group, an East coast group, etc.

I'll attend the Hawaii BG sub-group meet ups, Ron

Enlightenment machine, phase I: Build a neuro-feedback gizmo that focuses on the areas of the brain relevant to direct experience and provide feedback when user is engaging experience directly. In parallel another neuro-feedback gizmo, or maybe the same one, that gives negative feedback when the narrative centers of the brain are engaged or when experienced is pushed away. Get volunteers, collect data, compare to experienced meditators and non-meditators.

"
I'll attend the Hawaii BG sub-group meet ups, Ron

"

Any time!

How would an enlightenment machine make you wise? How would a psychedelic drug make you wise?

Perhaps the machine or drug would have to make go through trial and error. If that were the case, willingness to go through that would have to be present. Otherwise both the machine and drug would be perceived as an aggression

Other questions/inspirations - I attended a workshop with Shinzen Young on working with emotions. His technique seemed remarkably similar to the grounding technique, including noting emotions and narrative talk - has anyone out there experimented with his technique? Does it result in what people are describing here as 5th, 6th, and 7th stage?