Stream entry is stream entry

We are, as a community, compulsive mappers. Many of us like to create maps, interpret maps, modify maps, and critique maps of insight and awakening. Lately, though, I've noticed a trend in map interpretation that I don't find helpful. It might be compared to grade inflation in universities and secondary schools.

Some of us have noticed that the ten fetters map of the Four Paths of Enlightenment does not necessarily correlate well to the Vissudimagga/Mahasi map of the same territory. Attempts to explain how and where the maps diverge naturally follow. In some cases this effort is motivated by a sincere desire to understand the two systems. But there also seems to be an undercurrent of machismo, as in "my bar is higher than the bar down the street." At times, this can border on the ridiculous.

This map one-upmanship has most recently shown up as speculation that stream entry in the ten fetters map is equivalent to 4th path in the technical model.

My own view is that stream entry is the least controversial of the landmarks; it lines up remarkably well across the maps. While the ten fetters map and the Visuddhimagga/Mahasi map can be interpreted as diverging AFTER that point, stream entry is just stream entry. Attempting to shoehorn ten fetters stream entry into technical model 4th Path is wildly far-fetched, IMHO. It is also counter-productive. Turning useful maps into a sea of grey risks so thoroughly confounding beginners that they run screaming for the exit before giving the practice a chance.

It seems to me that anyone who has truly reached 4th Path by the technical model would acknowledge that anything that could be reasonably interpreted as stream entry happens at a much, much earlier level of development.

A comment by Nick on an RT'ers blog ( completehumanity.blogspot.com/2011/07/stream-entry.html ):

Nick: "Something you might want to consider with yogis who have similar backgrounds to G. There seems to be a certain "non-occurence" which is often called a cessation of the senses, which may not be accompanied by the insight into the falsehood of self. A yogi may seem to cycle the stages of insight and exhibit the symptoms of what is described in Daniel Ingram's book, Mastering the Core Teachings of Buddha, yet not really have seen through the illusion of self for the 1st time. I have seen this before. Then there are yogis, who have not experienced any cessation of the senses to their knowledge but have seen through the falsehood of self. And then there are yogis who have both things occur.

What you call bhanga, Elena, may well be mistaken for stream entry as well, but it is only the 5th stage of insight, and there just maybe the case that we are seeing two different developments. The cessation occurs after the 11th stage of insight. Each stage exhibits certain phenomenological occurrences which can help with diagnosis. But people can get misdiagnose.

What you are pointing to above, and when it is realized is much more what the Buddha of the pali canon talked about. The other cessation of the senses is NEVER talked about as stream entry by the buddha, at least not in the pali canon. This came about in buddhist commentaries later on and in the teachings of Mahasi Sayadaw.

This might be some useful info for the stubborn yogis who say they have gotten stream entry (a cessation of the senses as talked about at the DhO and MCTB and some Buddhist circles) YET don't really show signs of having really dropped the fetter of belief in "self". After all, right view from a Buddhist standpoint really is born from dropping the wrong view of the existence of a self. "

Speaking from my experience, stream entry was quite awesome, and shattered doubts that I couldn't do this and that this stuff wasn't real. But I went right back to it, trying to eliminate the self, and this tortured me quite a bit. (Basically I got attached to the phenomena, to the cessations, to the bliss, to the maps, to the stages, etc., and didn't consider what it actually meant.) I don't think I really dropped the belief in a self (as something to be gotten rid of - nihilism, basically) until pretty recently.

So I wonder if there are just two separate things here, the self-view-dropping stream-entry and the cessation-of-senses stream-entry. The latter can very easily trigger the former, but not always (like in my case). And 4th path is likely impossible to occur without the self-view dropping (so if you didn't drop it earlier, you certainly drop it then). This may be what people are pointing to when they equate 4th path with suttic stream entry, though it isn't entirely accurate (it's not equivalent, just that 4th path requires it, though it can happen earlier, even pre-cessation-stream-entry).

Likewise, a full-blown PCE, seen (entered/exited) with discernment, seems to be equally effective in dropping the belief in a self, though it does not come with cessation-stream-entry - in the case of TJ Broccoli, for example, the first PCE was her guidepost as what to look for on her first Goenka course, and because of the impetus it provided she got cessation-stream-entry in that very course.

Just my 2 cents.

This is, IMHO, the most important sentence on this or any other thread here this week:

"Turning useful maps into a sea of grey risks so thoroughly confounding beginners that they run screaming for the exit before giving the practice a chance."

Hi Kenneth,

This recent post was pointed out to me, and I feel that I have to suspend my break from posting for a moment to respond to it.

My claim that technical 4th path is what the suttas mean by stream entry is one that I made simply because I thought it was true and because I hoped it would benefit people to hear this. I don't see mapping one's attainments as a kind of ego gratification, like wearing the black belt on one's karate gi with pride. It doesn't matter one bit to me whether I am higher, lower, or just the same as anyone else according to any mapping system. In fact, I personally would be glad if every single person on this forum were to have higher attainments than me according to whatever map we're using. It wouldn't hurt me one bit, and it would be great for everyone else.

As I recall, you believe that technical 4th path is best mapped to sakadagami. The sakagadami has the fetters of sensual desire and ill-will weakened. But people who claim technical 4th path can have moments of sensual desire and ill will that are just as strong as anyone who is pre-path, even if this is less common. "Less common" is, to me, not a weakening of fetters. (Daily valium makes them less common too.) IMO a fetter is weakened when it is permanently reduced, in every future moment of experience, without exception. So, to me, that means 4th path cannot be sakadagami. By that argument, It surely isn't a more advanced attainment than sakadagami either; so what's left? Stream entry.

You may say the problem is that the progress of insight map and the suttic map are incompatible (which would explain the discrepancy) but my experience was that the progress of insight describes how one goes beyond the pragmatic dharma end of development as accurately as it describes how one gets there (i.e. with more apparent cycles than Mahasi Sayadaw leads us to believe). (cont)

I don't see how beginners would be turned away by my claim. A person who begins spiritual practice because he thinks he'll get a certificate of stream entry quite soon, and hopes to pin it to his lapel in pride, is probably not the sort of person who hangs around at KFD. If the maps change, each person can see for themselves that their own personal progress, their own insight, their own freedom from suffering, remains precisely where it was before the change. And that's what we're all practicing for, I imagine. The only change would be that it indicates to map-oriented practitioners that there is so much more that they will be able to do for themselves and their own level of insight and happiness, beyond what they had previously imagined. I find such reflections to be very positive and motivating and think others would too.

As for what people who have truly reached technical 4th path would claim...all I can say is, when I thought I had reached technical stream entry, it was obvious to me that there was no self in the aggregates. I no longer believe "obvious to me" is the criterion for the cessation of the fetter of personality view. As I have said, some people claim to attain technical stream entry and have the signs of it (cycling through the nanas, having better access to jhanas, being able to notice cessations) and yet it isn't "obvious to them".

If anyone cares to judge what I have attained or not attained...I have renounced all claims to any attainment except the one I was born with, which is not being free according to my personal understand of freedom, and so I won't discuss how any other map relates to me.

I also want to state, don't believe what I say about what is what; go get whatever you consider to be technical 4th path, notice the fetters that arise, see what happens as your practice deepens, and, if you're still inclined to form an opinion, judge for yourself.

(To be very specific about something...I don't think the progress of insight is the ONLY map that describes the Buddhist path. It isn't in the suttas, and I don't believe that it can really be derived from them in a clear way either. If someone put a gun to my head and demanded a theory, I would say, the more one leans towards discernment, the more accurate that map will be, and the more one leans towards tranquility, the less accurate that map will be. The suttas emphasize jhana, and anyone who emphasizes jhana will, on this theory, not have a very progress-of-insight kind of experience. But. as far as I recall, this is what the Visuddhimagga says too.)

It has been my understanding that according to the 10 fetter model there are two points where one's sense of self is impacted.

The first of those points is at stream entry when the first fetter (belief in a self) drops. I see that as a fundamental change in the concept of a self, knowing that the former belief in a permanent, abiding self is wrong but possibly still falling for it sometimes, definitely still seeing it arise sometimes but often seeing through it without effort.

The second point is at fourth path where the fetter of conceit is dropped. The Buddha uses conceit as shorthand for the conceit of 'I am'. I understand that to be the full release of the idea that 'I' exist as a some thing somewhere.

This seems to completely correlate with the descriptions of stream entry I've heard in this community and I see no reason to change that.

" Turning useful maps into a sea of grey risks so thoroughly confounding beginners that they run screaming for the exit before giving the practice a chance."

Another good way to accomplish the same thing is to go from a 4 path model to a 7 "stage" model, then add an 8th stage with no noticeable explanation. Now, do this in under a year, and limit discussion from members.

It never ceases to amaze me when people loose sight of the simple fact that the map is not the territory it describes.

I think I can give a different perspective on this as I got stream-entry before even knowing what vipassana was due to the way I'd practiced previously, but subsequent investigation, practice and conversations with people more experienced than me eventually confirmed this which, only after that point, led me to get involved with pragmatic dharma and develop an interest in Buddhism as a whole. Bear in mind that I come from a weird, roundabout background in all manner of stuff and have had the pleasure of spiritual revelations, visions, all sorts of "Ah ha!" moments but nothing, and I mean none of it, did what stream-entry did - Caused a permanent reduction in the level of suffering I was experiencing.

My experience agrees with Kenneth, stream-entry is stream-entry, it's unmistakable although I'm certain that some people (not on this site or the DhO) perhaps not for any malicious reasons, have misrepresented their experience and attempted to frame it as being equivalent to 1st path. That's another discussion altogether but I can see no reason for the current diagnosis of stream-entry to be changed or altered, it functions perfectly as an indicator of a particular phase in one's development.

"" Turning useful maps into a sea of grey risks so thoroughly confounding beginners that they run screaming for the exit before giving the practice a chance."

Another good way to accomplish the same thing is to go from a 4 path model to a 7 "stage" model, then add an 8th stage with no noticeable explanation. Now, do this in under a year, and limit discussion from members.
"

Fair enough, Rev, but keep in mind that the hybrid map is an attempt to reconcile some possible discrepancies between the ten fetters and technical maps. I apologize if it makes it even more confusing. My main point here is that the one consistent landmark we still have is stream entry, so let's not muck about with it!

I'm not sure what you mean about "limiting discussion." What do you mean?

"As I recall, you believe that technical 4th path is best mapped to sakadagami." -EndInSight

I wouldn't say that. First of all, I think as maps go, the ten fetters map is pitiful. The technical map blows its doors off in terms of precision, teachability, reproducibility, and verifiability. So, any kind of mapping that uses the ten fetters system is only a vague guess. After all, it is nothing more than a brief list of insights. And the English words we use to translate the technical Pali terms are a recipe for confusion. For example, the word "conceit" means all sorts of things in English that have little or nothing to do with the meaning of the Pali word "mana." Just one of many examples.

What I have said is that one way to interpret the ten fetters map is to correlate ten fetters sakadagami to technical arahatship. I could also make the case that the two maps describe exactly the same territory. I don't have much of a stake in which of these interpretations is "correct." And by the way, these are but two of the many I've been exposed to, as witnessed by the fact that you have put forth yet another.

So, in keeping with the values of pragmatism and good old common sense, I ask myself if anything useful can be salvaged from all this murky mapping. Yes! We can keep the Progress of Insight and stream entry as brilliantly explicated in the Vissuddimagga and further clarified by Mahasi Sayadaw. It is by far the most useful map to stream entry and has benefited countless yogis, some dozens of which I've been privileged to watch from ringside as they've gone through it. Once someone as gotten to stream entry, they are so thoroughly on the ride that I feel confident they will find their way further even with our flawed and contradictory maps.

But can we please just keep stream entry as stream entry? There is nothing to gain by blurring it.

For better or worse, I'm not KFD's official cartographer; I just share my thoughts. I don't control what anyone considers stream entry to be.

I agree that the technical map is extremely precise and reproducible. I wasn't suggesting that we get rid of it. Rather, I was suggesting that we distinguish technical stream entry (which is definitely *some* contemplative milestone) from the sutta's stream entry (which is, honest-to-God, what I think technical 4th path is). In other words, keep the technical map, and put an asterisk at technical 4th path, and then (for those who believe it) attach the 10 fetters model right there.

Just to repeat, when I thought I had reached technical stream entry, it was obvious to me in some reflective sense that every phenomenon was not self...and yet, at certain extreme times, I found myself intuitively believing otherwise (and my reflective beliefs had to fight it out against the intuition). And not everyone who gets technical stream entry is even reflectively convinced that phenomena are not self. To the extent that one believes in anything like the fetter map, I don't see how the experience of technical stream entry describes the absolute cessation of the fetter of personality view. IMO the fetter does not describe an intellectual position, but an intuitive stance towards phenomena. But the perspective shift of technical 4th path with regard to views of self? YEAH! That sounds more like it.

(Note that many people report the 4th path perspective shift without cessation. Even I, die-hard noter, reported that in my practice journal. And the suttas never describes cessation at stream entry.)

And think of poor Ananda, stuck at stream entry for decades. How believable is it for someone not to have made a second cycle through the progress of insight in that long? Yet, comparatively...how believable would it be if stream entry means "technical 4th path"?

And now, I'm back to not posting for awhile.

Kenneth, as a personal favor, please don't begin threads that appear to single out me and my views while I'm not posting. I'm simply not going to be available to state my perspective, and so any discussion that results from that sort of post will be a bit unfair.

With all respect and humility, EndInSight, I must say that I don't think you know what you are talking about in this particular instance. I love your enthusiasm, your intellect, your transparency, and your sincerity. And of course you are welcome, even encouraged, to tell it as you see it. But at the same time, I feel an obligation to point out that in my opinion your take on stream entry is completely wrong. And I'll probably keep saying so as long as you keep promoting it.

But I like you just the same, so please don't be hurt! I just disagree with you.

It's called stream entry because it is a relatively early-level insight. 4th Path as defined here, on the other hand, is anything but an entry level insight and the observable fact is that until recently, at least in modern, well-documented times, the vast majority of even serious meditators never achieved it. This is precisely what the pragmatic dharma movement has set out to change and I believe we are doing that. But conflating stream entry and 4th Path is ridiculous, IMHO, and when I hear someone make that case, it just makes me question whether they could possibly have experience of 4th Path. After all, it is easy to be confused about something one has not experienced. This is not a criticism of you, nor an indictment, nor even an evaluation of your practice. You and I haven't talked enough about your practice enough for me to offer a diagnosis and your written log does not convince me one way or the other.

"Kenneth, as a personal favor, please don't begin threads that appear to single out me and my views while I'm not posting. I'm simply not going to be available to state my perspective, and so any discussion that results from that sort of post will be a bit unfair." -EndInSight

OK, but I can't reasonably keep track of when you are not posting. I can only respond to posts as time and interest allow.

Even though I had similar thoughts when severely caught up in reconciling stuff, I now don't think it is worth it, End, to continue trying to reconcile this stuff now while you aren't free. Who has a stake in reconciling stuff? Is reconciling stuff actual helping 'you' step out of the way? Or is it re-inforcing some aspect of how 'you' wish to feel and continue flowing?

It is best to wait till after you achieve what you want to achieve. Then maybe you will have a better perspective on whether the mad urge to reconcile things is worth all the sidetracked energy.

In my own experience and in hindsight, it was a waste of sidetracked energy. When I stopped fussing over such things and then dedicated 100% of that same energy into investigating the arising and cessation of my own suffering (of which the reconciling urges contributed) then the progress I was trying to reconcile did not stagnate at Station Reconciliation and began to gain some momentum.

Has your train stalled? If so, ignore this post and thread and re-direct that reconciling energy towards what matters. Use the coal for the train to reach its destination, not to throw at the scenery you are passing by. In the end this (trying to map stuff) doesn't matter much and is within the domain of becoming if it becomes an obsession.

1st path for me was clearly Stream Entry. A belief in a personality identity was seen through and dropped forever when the centrepoint sensations were seen to just be a mass of sensations amongst the rest of the field of sensations. The sense of "me" dropped for those moments. My first cessation occurred 10 minutes later.

Edited to dare you NOT to check this website for a full week. The urges that arise will be good territory to explore and actualise. Checking this website is the same energy spent as posting on it. Who has a stake in checking it?

From my journal:

Day 5 (January 1st, 2010)
4.30am to 6.30am: So I begin to practice and its back to high equanimity because I am relaxed and I will the mind up to what I believe was the 4th Jhana and start observing "Self". I have breakfast noting all the way:tasting, tasting, feeling, swallowing. It really was non-stop noting.I am quite relaxed now as I seemed to have stopped craving path.
8am - 10.49am: I continue to work as above and the blipping in and out of the sensations of the illusory "Self" starts getting slower (or rather they are not being read as "Self") and about 4 seconds are seen of the "Self" as just a dance of sensations along with those sensations in the head that are in between blips, so it seems the subject is joining the object and just becoming one massive bare sensate experience.

Then at about 10.50, something clicks and that massive bare sensate experience of the sensations, previously known and seen as "Self", as "Nick", is seen so clearly. This simple insight felt so profound that this amazing feeling of happiness and pleasantness descended throughout the body. Nothing happens at this stage and the gong for lunch is sounded and I leave my cell to walk to the dining hall. All the while thinking of this mind-blowing insight which has been staring me in the face all along. I get there at about 11.05, sitting on a bench waiting to enter the dining hall.....and then the mind turns in on itself again onto that massive bare sensate experience of all these sensations just dancing about. No "Self" anymore.

Then it just appears naturally. The knowing of the Anatta/Non-self characteristic. The thoughts...."Holy crap, this is just fluff. The "Self" is just so substanceless. Just fluff!". Then the knowing of Anicca/Impermanence characteristic arises directly after it and the thought, "Wow, it's just the sum of sensations dancing about, as soon as they arise they stop dead." When I think back to this moment, it felt like the actual written words appeared in the mind. With these two characteristics known fully, immediately the Dukkha/Unsatisfactoriness characteristic just made complete sense!!!!!! And then...

I felt my head being pulled up slightly at the crown of the head and I felt like something "big" was about to happen. There was a mental reaction of anticipation and I managed to start noting it, but as it all happened so fast I only managed to note it with the word "noted"......and I felt sucked up into something unknown and spat out....... and with my eyes closed it looked like the sun was right in front of my eyes. I opened them and just thought..."What the hell! What was that....?". I really just felt massively stunned for several moments. And then started asking myself "Was that it?"

I can't help but feel a tiny bit responsible for some of the "stream entry = technical 4th path" ideas going around. I remember having a discussion here a while back where I was making some hypothetical statements about how the maps fits together, and this is one of the statements I made. However, my point in doing so was not to actually suggest that it was the case. I was, more or less, trying to show everyone just how arbitrary the maps are, and how unproductive it can be to try and pin the path down to anything but very broad strokes... if even then. I know I'm not solely responsible for the fire, but I'm afraid I may have rubbed some sticks together when I would have been wise not to.

Nevertheless, I am in agreement with Kenneth that stream entry is stream entry. It is perhaps the one benchmark that most relatively experienced practitioners can agree upon. It is what it is. That's not to say that the insights of stream entry do not have to be integrated after the fact, because they do.

...experience and observation tell me that the fruit of the original magga-phala experience must be firmly established and carefully nurtured through repetition if it is not to become smothered over time, and if true Stream Entry is to occur. Any habitual patterns of egocentric behavior and thinking that were not destroyed prior to magga-phala will reassert themselves afterwards whenever the right conditions are present, and so the work of the Stream Entrant is to apply Path Knowledge to their recognition and eradication. Desire and aversion are still present, and the Stream Entrant must therefore apply his/her understanding of sunnata and annata to their attenuation. This is where the '˜saturation of the mind' with the experience of phala comes in. The advantage of traditional Buddhist trainings is that they are systematic and results are repeatable, therefore the phala experience can be achieved again and again, and if the yogi is trained in Samatha, even the initial experience can last long enough to make a very deep imprint on the psyche.

...If I am correct in thinking that some of these experiences occurring outside of the Buddhist paradigm are in fact magga-phala, then it seems possible that magga-phala may not always result in achieving Stream Entry, or at least a Stream Entry that manifests in this lifetime. And if that is true, then it also raises the possibility that even some Buddhist practitioners may experience magga-phala, but without sufficient foundation and guidance for it to result in Stream Entry. Particularly vulnerable are yogis whose meditative skills are inadequate in terms of sustaining and repeating the experience of Fruition consciousness, or who lack the opportunity to practice phala samapatti subsequent to the initial experience. END OF QUOTE groups.yahoo.com/group/jhana_insight/message/2334

Just some food for thought, here is an interesting conversation I stumbled across at the Jhana Insight yahoo list serve between Culadasa and another advanced yogi.

START OF QUOTE: I want to take this opportunity to share with you some questions I have with regard to the relationship between magga-phala and sotapanna. I assume that for the most part what we are talking about here are magga-phala experiences that are the culmination of an extensive period of intense practice according to one of the traditional Buddhist paths to Awakening, and as such, the individual becomes a Sotapanna following the magga-phala event. But there are two questions I want to raise here. First, are magga-phala events always and exclusively the result of Buddhist practices? And second, does an individual always become a Sotapanna following a magga-phala event? I have come to think that experiences identical to what we call magga-phala can and sometimes do occur in consequence of non-Buddhist methods of training; that they can spontaneously occur without any formal training at all as a result of intense periods of profound suffering, compassion, or devotion for example; and further, that it can even happen unexpectedly with no apparent cause. I am sure not everyone agrees with me on this, but please consider it for the moment as a hypothesis. I have also become convinced that in order for a magga-phala experience to constitute stream entry, it is essential that the experience saturate to the very core of the yogi's mind, and that requires either or both of a prolonged abiding in phala and a frequent repetition of the phala experience in order to make a sufficiently lasting imprint on the mind. If this doesn't happen, the '˜magga-phala' event becomes a one-time, memorable, peak experience that may perhaps permanently change the person in certain ways, but without irrevocably setting them on a path to eventual full Enlightenment.

" And second, does an individual always become a Sotapanna following a magga-phala event? I have come to think that experiences identical to what we call magga-phala can and sometimes do occur in consequence of non-Buddhist methods of training; that they can spontaneously occur without any formal training at all as a result of intense periods of profound suffering, compassion, or devotion for example; and further, that it can even happen unexpectedly with no apparent cause. "

I figure that that fact that sotapanna can happen to someone, even if it's outside of a formal path and is never developed, is why the classic literature still gives you up to 7 more entire lifetimes to work it out Presumably if you work at your liberation with diligence, you will get there faster than that.

Stream entry is stream entry, no doubt about it, provided that one gets a genuine insight in the emptiness of self. The above quote (no. 20 and 21 make a good case to express what I mean).

At stream entry, one first sees that the self is a fiction (as described by Nikolai when mentioning his own expeirence of stream entry), but this is not yet permanent realization. We have seen it, but don't know how to turn this realization into a permanent state that we could call an abiding awakening.

It is only later, that one realizes that no-self is not an experience, but that there never was a self in the first place. This deeper realization of the timeless dimention of the unconditioned is what we call - and should probably continue to call - "technical 4th path". There is the recognition that "we were never born and will never die", that "even what we called non-dual awareness is not the unconditioned", that "everything is perfect as it is", that "there is nothing to do and no where to go", etc. And this recognition of the timeless leads to a permanent shift, simple because we know that we have never been in bondage. As a result, the illusion of an ego or self-center vanishes and thoughts and emotions cease to stick as they used to, reason why some of the remaining fetters are weakened. One also feels so complete that there is a strong feeling that "we are done!".

But at this stage I believe -like millions of other Buddhists- that one is not (yet) a living Buddha, nor an Arhat.

I would tend to think that, at this stage, one becomes a Sakadagami (this intuition is confirmed by Bhante G. and other contemporary serious traditional practitioners and scholars). But I don't mind if sakadagamis want to call themselves arhats at this stage. I am just convinced that there is more to it, proof of it the fact that "arhats" went crazy for AF at a point, realizing that it was pretty much about becoming a bona fide Arhat.

The sun rises suddenly, but the snow takes time to melt. The illusion of self-center or ego is gone, but there remains a subtle sense of a separate existence due to the remaining grasping habits of the mind that requires further work on the way to arhathood.

There is nothing macho here. It is ust a matter of being honest with oneself and others to avoid "adding delusion to delusion" as Dogen put it.