fr Jack: Mahamudra

I had codependent origination in mind. Clearly the Buddha built a conceptual model to explain the experiential/perception process. I happen to think it's wise to use that model and not build new ones for several reasons, one big reason being that we can all agree on one model and use that to talk cogently about the process without having to translate the between terms.

Just a suggestion.

Throwing in some theory, the Abhidhamma says that the 12 Cycles of Dependent Origination arise together not separately. That is, contact doesn't exist alone and then distortion (vedana, tanha, upadana, etc.) follows. Experience of pure conact is not possible. Something to think about.

jack

"Something to think about."

Indeed, Jack. And why is that? Maybe it's because of causes and conditions. From an absolute perspective time really is a non-issue, but the process we're talking about, experience/perception, plays out in relative space-time. It IS a process, after all

Also, to the point about pure contact, I think you are onto something there. Is pure, unmediated contact even possible? Everything, and I do mean literally everything, we experience is mediated through one "place" -- the mind. Nothing at all can ever even be without mind.

"Throwing in some theory, the Abhidhamma says that the 12 Cycles of Dependent Origination arise together not separately. That is, contact doesn't exist alone and then distortion (vedana, tanha, upadana, etc.) follows. Experience of pure conact is not possible. Something to think about."

So, birth arises at the same time as old age and death?

EDIT: I don't include vedana following contact in the distortion, though I have used words sloppily in the past and done so. There is physical vedana following contact, and the mental vedana of grasping is a distortion of that. As far as I can see, physical vedana is just whatever it is. (In my experience, its texture is radically different than mental vedana. Sensory pain is soft and subtle compared to what affective pain feels like.)

Chris, I'm not clear on how any of the three positions I gave conflict at all with the Pali canon's teaching. Translate "affect" into "grasping" and all is aligned as far as I can see.

(EDIT: OK, I see what you mean. You prefer the original explanation and terminology. There's value to that kind of continuity, surely. And it's also true that I come up with idiosyncratic ways of thinking about things which may not resonate with some people. I dunno. In relation to APrioriKreuz's question, it seems fair to throw a bunch of perspectives his way so that he can work with whichever seems intuitive and clear to him.)

But, getting back to the point that began this, this whole business can be explained in all kinds of ways, hopefully APrioriKreuz found at least one of those explanations to be clear and recognizes what we're talking about in his own experience.

"So, birth arises at the same time as old age and death?

EDIT: I don't include vedana following contact in the distortion, though I have used words sloppily in the past and done so. There is physical vedana following contact, and the mental vedana of grasping is a distortion of that. As far as I can see, physical vedana is just whatever it is. (In my experience, its texture is radically different than mental vedana. Sensory pain is soft and subtle compared to what affective pain feels like.)"

End, you must interprete the Cycle of Dependent Origination as operating in 3 lives. I as well as some others think it operates each mind moment. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

Jack

Do I understand it correctly that some of you believe mahamudra (MM) practice is meditating on silence/emptiness/void while others believe it is about mediating on something specific that exists but can't be heard (ships in the harbor)? And, neither side is saying the other is wrong?

My problem with mm practice is the enormous amount of narrative about my practice that is going on. Hopefully that will peter out soon.

jack

"End, you must interprete the Cycle of Dependent Origination as operating in 3 lives. I as well as some others think it operates each mind moment. Sorry if I misunderstood you."

I don't actually know anything about Abhidhamma, so there's not much I can really say.

The only canonical evidence I can think up at the moment to support non-simultaneity is this, from sallatha sutta:

"Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows; in the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental."

But, in the end, all we have to go by in the end are our own experiences. I perceive affect after the sense object. Maybe I will perceive otherwise in the future but this is what I perceive right now. What do you perceive right now?

"I don't actually know anything about Abhidhamma, so there's not much I can really say.

The only canonical evidence I can think up at the moment to support non-simultaneity is this, from sallatha sutta:

"Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows; in the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental."

But, in the end, all we have to go by in the end are our own experiences. I perceive affect after the sense object. Maybe I will perceive otherwise in the future but this is what I perceive right now. What do you perceive right now?"

I experience the Cycle of DO in time non-simultaneously as you probably do. I am also open to the possibility that all contact is irrevocably tied up with distortions. Also, my experience is that the Cycle of DO operates quickly.

jack

jack

"But, getting back to the point that began this, this whole business can be explained in all kinds of ways, hopefully APrioriKreuz found at least one of those explanations to be clear and recognizes what we're talking about in his own experience."

This one worked: "Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows; in the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental."

Thank you. Now all previous explanations make sense. Going back to what you said earlier: "If the witness can be used as an insight-producing experience, I wonder if other traditions use other affectively distorted arupa qualities. Maybe Dzogchen uses affect-space (the affective space-like nature of mind)? Maybe Advaita uses affect-nothingness (the affective awareness that appears to know 'I AM')? Can't imagine anyone uses affect-signlessness, seems too close to being unmindful."

Based on my experience with the nyingma preliminary practices (ngondro), these help us generate inertia of the following "mental movements": release everything that seems to be affective phenomena, let go every sense object, act selflessly, cultivation of mindfulness and presentnes. If I'm not mistaken, these preliminaries exist precisely to tame our tendency to generate affective phenomena. If this tendency is not purified, then dzogchen is still not dzogchen.

I have been ping pong phone noting every morning. We usually do 15 minutes general noting and 30 minutes mahamudra (mm). That has helped my mm noting tremendously. I catch myself doing mm occasionally doing the day as a result.

This morning I went for a very early morning walk and tried mm. I felt a strong pull toward luxuriating in my physical senses (no attachment). MM pulled me away from these. I decided that at time it was better to stick with my physical senses.

jack

By jove, I think I've got it. MM going great. Less and less time is spent on narrative.

I still have this question about mm. It works fine if I carve out time on the cushion and do it. However, it seems opposite to what I want to do with the rest of my life. That is, when I take a walk early in the morning, I don't want to do mm. I I want to live in my senses. Cessation to me does not mean cessation of awareness of the senses. How do the rest of you feel about this?

jack

IMHO, MM is not cessation of awareness of the senses. There is only cessation of delusion, conditioned existence, etc.

I walk, eat, drive, live, etc., practicing MM. If one releases all action that comes from embedded phenomena, what remains is freedom to enjoy everything, without hope to enjoy nor fear to lose enjoyment.

Jackha: With time, you may find that you no longer have to try to do 'listening' - it may just happen spontaneously when you realize that you are lost in narrative. Basically, with practice I would bet that you'll find it become more effortless and automatic and leave more room for totally experiencing the moment as it arises.

Orasis and AP, can you say more. Lately I have sometimes been able to be in contact with emptiness/void without effort for a short period of time. But, it is a state where nothing is there. As I said before, I leave my senses behind. There is a cessation of the senses. As I progress in this practice, are you saying that eventually the void/emptiness will open up to include the senses? Or, am I doing something wrong now?

In theory I can explain all this. Clear mind receives all phenomena without adding the "I" to it. But, my experience at this point in my mm practice seems contrary to this.

Jack

@Jackha Because there is emptiness, reality rises. If there is fullness, there is no reality, only fullness. If nothing is in your perception, perhaps you're imposing this "nothingness" over reality. It may seem like "emptiness", but it sounds like its conceptual emptiness. If it is conceptual emptiness then you have to drop it/release it. This conceptual emptiness is not emptiness, just an idea of it.

I agree with orasis, with time you will no longer have to try. Everything will reveal itself without your participation. Effortless awareness is key. If its effortless it means it is not fabricated, if its not fabricated, then there is only open clarity (void clarity) that reveals everything else (senses, reality, objects, etc.)

I think AP is right - it sounds like there is perhaps something being added - try letting go, letting go, letting go - surrender - see what is, exactly as it is in this moment. Try 'listening' then let go of even that effort and see what is there. Walk around a bit - touch and feel things, see things.

Good suggestions from both of you. Thanks.

Jack

Let me see if I have this straight. Before today my mm experience was of two mental states. One was the world of the senses and the other was of the void/emptiness. My understanding of mm colored my experience so that I let go of the senses to enter void/emptiness/ships in the harbor. No overlap between the two worlds. I was treating it like a jhana state without an object. This morning with a new understanding from reading this thread I accepted the world of the senses and the void together. Sometimes my experience would be just of emptiness. Sometimes it would be just of the senses. Sometimes it would be both together. Am I understanding your comments correctly?

Jack

"I accepted the world of the senses and the void together. "

The "acceptance" is emptiness. Other ways to look at it:
- Allow reality. "Allowing" is the emptiness.
- Let reality be. "Letting" is the emptiness.
- Now is obvious. The "Obviousness" is emptiness.
- Release reality. "Releasing" is emptiness.

Include yourself within reality. Hence, you have to accept your self as it is, allow your self be itself, let your self be as it is, let your self be obvious, release your self as it is, etc.

Other considerations:
- If emptiness is an object, it is not emptiness.
- If emptiness is outside yourself, it is not emptiness.
- If emptiness has any "colour" or characteristics, it is not emptiness.
- Emptiness is openness, respectfulness, "the container of things, its even the container of physical emptiness".

Alejandro

Today I did 45 mn noting followed by 20 mn mm. I notice that I don't relax into emptiness. My default state seems to be other than emptiness. I have to consciously listen and then my tendency is to go back into thoughts, sensations, etc. Is mm like noting in that increasing my time each mm session will help change this default to emptiness so I can relax there? Or, even though I keep each mm session short, eventually will it change if I keep doing mm each day? Samadhi practice has worked this way for me. Eventually I could keep in the jhanas seemingly forever without any effort.

Jack

"I notice that I don't relax into emptiness. My default state seems to be other than emptiness. I have to consciously listen and then my tendency is to go back into thoughts, sensations, etc."-Jack

Yes, it's the same for everyone. Our default state is "narrative focus" unless and until we change that conditioning through our practice. This is well established in neuroscience as well as in the experience of gazillions of meditators throughout the millennia. For the neuroscience part, check out the 2007 Farb study from the University of Toronto.

Here is a Psychology Today article that references the study:

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/your-brain-...oscience-mindfulness

Kenneth and everyone, thanks for your replies. Is mm practice like, say, noting when I should be doing a minimum of an hour a session to get maximum benefit? I can devote a mox of 2 hrs a day. I realize an accurate answer depends on where someone is on the path. I am looking for general guidelines.

jack

An hour sounds fine, although you can tune in to whatever feels right. If it feels like its too intense, maybe you can practice later. If you feel you can go over an hour, go for it. Always monitor your body and make adjustments.

All habits are created through repetition and perseverance. Eventually you'll be able to discern MM in a few seconds.

I also recommend reading a Mahamudra text to get into the Mahamudra view right before the practice. For example, Tilopa's instruction to Naropa:
www.keithdowman.net/mahamudra/tilopa.htm

You don't have to read the whole text, just by reading a few verses might be enough to reveal the MM view. Once you recognize it, start the MM noting.

This morning I did 40 minutes ping pong noting plus 20 minutes mm ping ponging. Went for a 45 minutes walk this evening doing mm meditation with limited success. Then I watched Shinzen Young teaching mm at . Right after, I did 30 minutes mm with very little noting. What I took from Shinzen was relaxing and letting the conscious mm process that I had internalized take over. I reached that nothing spot and wanted to stay there without any effort. It was as if worries, knee pain, etc. were going by as a stream with emptiness holding them all. Nothing could touch 'me'. Previously I had to consciously recognize phenomena, accept them, look for the positives and consciously listen to the ships. It was work in a sense.

I've learned a lot from this thread. Thanks.

jack