Design and the Language of AF

Awesome. There it is.

Yay! I am so glad you posted this. I have my own list of things that I love doing, and I am really, really looking forward to doing them without craving or aversion. Thank you.

Laurel: For what its worth, with the Ships in the Harbor technique, I've regained the deep appreciation for music that I lost since I was a teenager. I am able to hear the enormous complexity of the sound, the individual instruments, and I can now listen to a song anew that I've heard a thousand times before. I am no longer layering my own memory of the music over the experience - I am hearing the sounds fresh and without narrative. The same wonderful freshness, fidelity, and aliveness has also been true of other experiences (*cough* sex *cough*) - heck even the wonderful warmth of the hot sidewalk underneath my feet as I sit on my porch and write this.

Guys, I don't know if this will help anybody or not but I'll put it out there anyway.

With a practice of awareness and surrender to what is, nothing that was really there ever goes away. It just is seen clearly and gets untangled. It wasn't that my self went and immolated, that's nonsense. My self wasn't ever there to begin with. What immolated was my confusion about this fact.

There is a reality, but that reality can't be understood by the mind and has never included even a single separate being. Quit grasping for understanding and be that reality! It's more than just right in front of you, IT IS YOU!

My friends, love isn't gone - I am love. What's gone are the blocks to it in the body that I mistook for love, and those blocks (affect) were wrapped in the idea that a separate self could control that love. The fear is gone because there was never anything to be afraid of.

Ultimately what's gone is idea that there's a line I can draw around only one bit of realty and call it me. It's that wrong view which was torturing this mind and body, making it appear that this amazing manifestation was something other than a beautiful, endless ride. Let go, it really will be ok.

"
My friends, love isn't gone - I am love. What's gone are the blocks to it in the body that I mistook for love, and those blocks (affect) were wrapped in the idea that a separate self could control that love. The fear is gone because there was never anything to be afraid of. "

Hmmm, 'love' is a massively loaded word that carries more baggage than any other word in the English language. If this is proof of anything, it's that Owen has his own style. I would not say these things myself.

Maybe inherent open recognition, inherent intimate appreciation, inherent virtuous consideration, inherent intimate inclusion, all affectlessly wondrous. This would be as clear as currently possible as to what I would want to convey about the continuing situation concerning anything equating the loaded term 'love'.

"My friends, love isn't gone - I am love. What's gone are the blocks to it in the body that I mistook for love, and those blocks (affect) were wrapped in the idea that a separate self could control that love."

Isn't love fundamentally a desirous passion? From dictionary.com:

1. a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.
2. a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.
3. sexual passion or desire.
8. ( initial capital letter ) a personification of sexual affection, as Eros or Cupid.
9. affectionate concern for the well-being of others: the love of one's neighbor.
12. the benevolent affection of God for His creatures, or the reverent affection due from them to God.

All of these definitions include one of: passion, affection, attachment, or desire. Thus all of these point to some kind of affect (keep in mind an anonymous AFers note that Nick conveyed to this board[1]). Taking all that into account, for the sake of clarity... what part of you is love[2], exactly?

[1] kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/46...+emotions?offset=240 , post 241
[2] as is usually understood by the word. if you mean something else by it, then for the sake of clarity keep in mind the most common associations with the word

"Isn't love fundamentally a desirous passion? From dictionary.com:

1. a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.
2. a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.
3. sexual passion or desire.
8. ( initial capital letter ) a personification of sexual affection, as Eros or Cupid.
9. affectionate concern for the well-being of others: the love of one's neighbor.
12. the benevolent affection of God for His creatures, or the reverent affection due from them to God.

All of these definitions include one of: passion, affection, attachment, or desire. Thus all of these point to some kind of affect (keep in mind an anonymous AFers note that Nick conveyed to this board[1]). Taking all that into account, for the sake of clarity... what part of you is love, exactly?

[1] kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/46...+emotions?offset=240 , post 241"

Think absolute bodhicitta.

"Think absolute bodhicitta. "

Please clarify 'absolute bodhicitta'. Is this another term that can be interpreted a thousand ways?

Bodhicitta is a term that has been coming up quite a bit lately. Is there a definitive text on the concept?

"Think absolute bodhicitta. "

I'm not familiar with the term... can you get at what you're saying without using it, or the term love? After doing so, can you go into why you used the term love to describe it, keeping in mind the dictionary definition of love?

I note that the term "compassion" that we use to translate "karuna" is also misleading. Compassion litterally means "to be affected with", while "karuna" is composed of the radical "kar" that denotes action (karma). Its real meaning is more doing something for others when it is needed without even noticing it, like the left hand scratching the right hand. In other words, "karuna" is not an affect, but an action for others. In Sanskrit love as a feeling is "prema", while erotic love is "kama".

Reminds my what my Chinese wife says about our Western use of the term "love". For us is it a feeling, we feel love and express is verbally saying "I love you" or "I am in love" (free to act like total ********), while in Chinese culture "to love" is to actually do something selflessly for others, even if we do not feel like it.

This leads me to think that when speaking of "karuna" (compassion), the Buddha was not speaking about an affect or a passion, but about selfless action.

We find a similar problem with the term "wisdom", so fashionable these days, that is equaly misleading. "Prajna" is not the wisdom of an old wise man. The radical "pra" denotes light, while "jna" means "gnosis" (same Indo European root jna/gna/gno), "insight knowledge" or "deep insight". Prajna is therefore something like "enlightened deep insight into the nature of reality".

"Absolute, or ultimate, bodhicitta, which refers to the wisdom of shunyata (śunyatā, a Sanskrit term often translated as "emptiness", though the alternatives "openness" or "spaciousness" probably convey the idea better to Westerners).[4] The concept of śunyatā in Buddhist thought does not refer to nothingness, but to freedom from attachments (particularly attachment to the idea of a static or essential self) and from fixed ideas about the world and how it should be. The classic text on śunyatā is the Prajñāpāramitā Hṛdaya Sūtra, a discourse of the Buddha commonly referred to as the "Heart Sūtra."

So, the term bodhicitta in its most complete sense would combine both:

* the arising of spontaneous and limitless compassion for all sentient beings, and
* the falling away of the attachment to the illusion of an inherently existent self.

Wikipedia - Bodhicitta article."

Lifted this quote from the Wikipedia article on Bodhicitta, not the most reliable of sources of course but I though it worth adding to the conversation.

@Alex: Aye that's exactly why I was asking Owen to clarify what he meant by love... thanks for the mention of karuna and prajna as well.

Ok, right. Love is a messy term, and can lead to a bunch of confusion. But confusion is not always bad if it helps you let go of ideas. Ideas do not fit through the door, which is what gets burned into you during the anagami dilemma (virtual freedom).

"Ok, right. Love is a messy term, and can lead to a bunch of confusion. But confusion is not always bad if it helps you let go of ideas. Ideas do not fit through the door, which is what gets burned into you during the anagami dilemma (virtual freedom).
"

Hehe, and more confusion now.. as I thought the anagami dilemma was specifically a term coined by the pragmatic dharma community for 3rd-technical-path in not knowing what to look for but still feeling a twinge of insight-disease, which goes away at 4th-technical-path and is certainly not 10-fetter-4th-path.

Anyways, my intent is not to pick at words unnecessarily, but just to keep things straight for other practitioners. If we start saying love is the most wonderful thing and all that is left, then people might go and cultivate affective love, which will certainly not lead to an actual freedom.

"Hehe, and more confusion now.. as I thought the anagami dilemma was specifically a term coined by the pragmatic dharma community for 3rd-technical-path in not knowing what to look for but still feeling a twinge of insight-disease, which goes away at 4th-technical-path and is certainly not 10-fetter-4th-path.

Anyways, my intent is not to pick at words unnecessarily, but just to keep things straight for other practitioners. If we start saying love is the most wonderful thing and all that is left, then people might go and cultivate affective love, which will certainly not lead to an actual freedom."

Yeah, the anagami dilemma comes back as you approach pali 4th, and it comes back pissed. At least it did for me.

To look at the flip side of the coin, one of the process that has helped me is to "triangulate" awakening. Kenneth's 3 speed transmission allows you to look at this process from many different perspectives along many different dimensions. There are different concrete "light houses" from which the mind can triangulate such as noting, witness practice, listening for the ships in the harbor, noticing looseness, brightness, and lucidity, etc.

It seems from this perspective, there is a lot of value in diversity. What I have noticed though, is that these lighthouses are significantly better when they are active practices as opposed to concepts.

When concepts are used, it seems that they are best when they would correspond to a verbal note of experience. WIth Mahamudra Noting, patterns of tension, release, narrative, listening, brightness, clarity, openness, compassion, peace seem common. These words would seem to be a good basis for discussion because they tend to arise spontaneously in multiple people's experience.

"Yeah, the anagami dilemma comes back as you approach pali 4th, and it comes back pissed. At least it did for me.

"

It didn't for me. It would be best not to make absolute statements like so as it may not be the case for others approaching release. Perhaps make them with the disclaimer "in my experience" before claiming it is so for all. This will be better for the future collection and analysis of data. If yogis go into it expecting this so called 'dilema', they may be subject to affective scripting and even creating blocks that weren't there to begin with. For the moment calling it what you have is not valid as far as I can see.

Edited to apologise to owen for not seeing the final disclaimer "at least it did for me". This post still stands though for possible future reference.

"It didn't for me. It would be best not to make absolute statements like so as it may not be the case for others approaching release. Perhaps make them with the disclaimer "in my experience" before claiming it is so for all. This will be better for the future collection and analysis of data. If yogis go into it expecting this so called 'dilema', they may be subject to affective scripting and even creating blocks that weren't there to begin with. For the moment calling it what you have is not valid as far as I can see. "

"At least it did for me"

Based on my practice and experience, to me relative/explicit bodhicitta means: Beneficial, practical action for everyone, including this body and mind, and for any process. Action can be either doing something or not doing something in order to benefit, advance, improve or heal something or someone, avoiding as much harm and inefficiency as possible in the process.

How do you get the wisdom to act like that? This comes a perspective that perceives everything as empty. Oneself is empty, phenomena is empty, people are empty, etc. So, if everything is empty, acting contrary to this would only hinder the movement of apparent empty phenomena.

Although IMHO it is IMPOSSIBLE to define Absolute Bodhicitta, here's my pointer: empty presence that pervades everything and allows the effortless, efficient movement of apparent phenomena.

"...
How do you get the wisdom to act like that? This comes a perspective that perceives everything as empty. Oneself is empty, phenomena is empty, people are empty, etc. So, if everything is empty, acting contrary to this would only hinder the movement of apparent empty phenomena.
..."

IMO these descriptions are not sufficient, as technical model 4th pathers can say the same, only they might include such things as: anger is empty, love is empty, etc... thus we really need to be explicit here.

I have begun to take the view that 'enlightenment' (a la technical model) is the last (subtle hence insidious) defense of the self (now called the Self, or Awareness, or what-not). It fools one into thinking that they are done, that anger arises just as naturally as visual input, that trying to do anything about it would be contrary to going with 'what is', etc... thus we really, really have to be clear and explicit, so yogis can have all the help they can get to get over the hump of 'enlightenment' and to actually being enlightened (10-fetter-arahat-style).

Thus when writing anything concerning this topic, take care to see whether your words distinguish sufficiently between 'enlightenment' and enlightenment.. and I'm in favor of calling the latter something else, be it explicitly qualified (10-fetter arahat enlightenment) or another term altogether (AF).

This is why I actually think the actual freedom trust site's writings are great, because they were aimed specifically at destroying this last delusion... and taking everything into consideration, it isn't surprising that 'enlightened' folks were/are so averse to it. But that was the point, and it worked. The only thing Richard missed was that it can actually be conducive to eventuating an actual freedom, if one isn't blindsided by the delusion (which one won't be if one takes these things into account).

I have to add a disclaimer that I assume AF is 10-fetter-arahat... this might not be the case, and just because more people think that might be the case, doesn't make it so... but if it isn't the case, then that is certainly wonderful - an even greater release is possible?

This is just my own personal and humble opinion and it is based solely on my own personal experience, but speculation about any of these things - paths, stages, states - tends to be overly simplistic and based mostly on concepts. As such it is suspect. I have yet to experience anything that lines up perfectly with anyone's model or map, and I suspect that' true of al lot of us. Look at Nick and Owen's varying versions of their recent experience and the different language they use. My guess - and it IS a guess - is that the range of "stuff" that can and does happen along the path among all of us is almost infinitely variable and unbelievable complex. Yes, models and maps tend to fit in most cases, maybe very broadly in all cases, but that's like saying an arithmetic mean describes every outlying observation in a time series.

"IMO these descriptions are not sufficient, as technical model 4th pathers can say the same, only they might include such things as: anger is empty, love is empty, etc... thus we really need to be explicit here. "

True, true. What Owen is reporting in his practice thread is far better than my words. I'm certainly not "done" nor "actually free" but I can add this:

- Narratives (characters, plot, and their components: deluded sensations, patterns, affects and emotions) hinder right action: action free of agency.
- When narratives aren't present, this body and mind can act efficiently, effortlessly and freely, in order to improve, advance or benefit people or processes (like chores, job tasks, etc.). This type of action is in fact meditation and it purifies experience, IMO you don't have to be a techincal 4th pather or an Anagami a la 10-fetter model. If a task that improves something or someone is taken as object of attention, and if our actions to complete the task are taken as our applied attentiveness, practice rises. Add sensuousness and, as Nick suggested, a 7th jhana juxtaposition with a sense of being and, little by little you'll experience relative and absolute bodhicitta EDIT: The Paramitas also rise while one is practicing right action (they become meditation practices as well). Many PCEs and EE will happen, but the objective is to function while meditating.
- Wisdom is the free movement of the 6 basis of consciousness that adapts efficiently to the circumstances of this moment. This free movement means that it is free from subtle hopes, fears, ignorances and their corresponding deluded inertias, embedded in the senses, tangible and intangible objects, etc.

Also, I think Trungpa's take on the paramitas (from his book Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism) is a a very good glimpse of explicit bodhicitta. Although he is not as geeky and technical in his description.

I foolishly attempt to draft a consensus position:

Birth to 1st Path:
Not sure if there is a path out of fundamental suffering. Don't take any ideas too seriously. All words fail.

1st Path to technical 4th Path:
Pretty sure there is a path out of fundamental suffering. Don't take any ideas too seriously. All words fail.

Technical 4th path to dropping 'selfing':
Fundamental suffering is seen through. Don't take any ideas too seriously. All words fail.

After dropping 'selfing':
Don't take any ideas too seriously. All words fail.