Insufficient Conceptual Motivation

Hi guys, I have a problem. Or rather, my problem seems to be that I don't have enough of a problem.

I can experience the perfection of this moment. I can see self drop away. When very attentive, I can watch the twitch of vedana pulling attention back into ignorance.

Earlier this year, the experience of perfection was fresh and getting stronger, there was huge motivation to be aware more moments of the day.

Now, after experiencing tastes of the prize, my conceptual mind finds that it only sightly prefers perfection over ignorance and apparently not enough to have motivation to remain highly attentive. My conceptual mind also has very little problem with this other than a slight craving of further attainment.

How can 'I' convince 'I' that it needs to get out of the way more? Are there any thought viruses I can insert in my mind to gain motivation? Is such an motivating idea even a good thing if I am basically fine right now?

Here's a few thoughts:

- Consider that 'I' do not find perfection important. It is the antithesis of 'I'. There will be no affective pull to experience perfection - no motivation. What you need is a form of motivation that is not affective. Instead of pushing yourself into perfection, let perfection pull you forward, instead. Some call this "pure intent".

- You say, "I can experience the perfection of this moment." Why do you do anything else? Investigate any reason that comes up. Lack of motivation is 'I'. When there are no reasons not to do it it will do itself.

- Isn't it more fun to pay attention than not to pay attention?

- Consider that as long as 'I' am around, 'I' have the potential to harm people. You aren't doing this for 'me' as 'I' will be gone when all is said and done. Look at all the suffering people experience in the world today - not only daily life things like arguments, fighting, domestic violence, rage, anxiety, sorrow, but also suicides and wars and crises and starvation (what if the whole population dedicated itself to at least providing food for everybody on the planet? would certainly be more likely to happen than it is now), etc... the cause of all conflict, at root, is 'I', the very same 'I' that you don't see a reason to do anything about. Why not do something about it, especially since you're in a good position to?

- On the D-O thread you said your mind goes into some kind of twist when trying to conceptualize the absolute. It might be a fun exercise to have the mind go into the twist, then resolve it (watch it till it fades), re-twist the mind, resolve it, etc. 'I' am the twist. Might be a way to bring up some 'I' and knock it down.

Thanks Beoman. The pull metaphor seems like there could be something worth investigating there.

When I investigate reasons for not paying attention, it all seems to be simply habitual patterns - my conceptual mind actually has more fun *not* paying attention. I may be wrong, but it seems at this point, attention is the whole game. This is the nut - how is it cracked?

I appreciate the consul around not harming other people and even things like the fire and brimstone in Words of My Perfect Teacher, but my conceptual mind remains unconvinced. I don't have any beliefs about an afterlife to scare me, and I don't believe I'm an ******* to those around me. Part of this is a quasi-nihilistic perspective that everything is fine as it is and nothing needs doing.

Your last point gets closer to the heart of it - the only time I really suffer grossly is when I get into a felt sense of bewildering confusion - when my mental projections come far out of line with the experience of reality and the cognitive dissonance becomes acutely painful. But how to experience this more when my mind is already good at avoiding pain?

orasis: "When I investigate reasons for not paying attention, it all seems to be simply habitual patterns - my conceptual mind actually has more fun *not* paying attention. I may be wrong, but it seems at this point, attention is the whole game. This is the nut - how is it cracked?"

'I' am the conceptual mind and the conceptual mind is 'me'. Conceptual mind is suffering, borne from ignorance. Why are you listening to something that is telling you to suffer? =P. Maybe 'it' has 'more fun' but is it less suffering to not pay attention? Perhaps you should re-evaluate what, exactly, you consider to be suffering.

It seems like you want to convince your conceptual mind... but, from the way you are using the phrase, it really seems like it is a facet of 'I', which will disappear upon release. Thus, you're going about it the wrong way... pay attention _regardless_ of the conceptual mind. Pay attention _to_ the conceptual mind.

Think of it this way: before you even started meditating, what did you consider to be fun? What was less suffering and what was more? How has that changed as you've been on the path?

orasis: "But how to experience this more when my mind is already good at avoiding pain?"

I'm not sure. The discussion we were having seems to have triggered it - maybe poke around there? Try to conceive what the absolute is, whether 'you' will be there. Consider that at some point 'you' will be gone permanently - what does that trigger? My mind gets twisted pretty easily if I try to find where 'I' am.

One more thing that really helped me (not sure if this applies to you): I was looking to 'stop' somewhere. I wanted to meditate, get enlightened (which at first was defined as stream entry, then 4th path, now AF), then I would have no more worries: Permanent Spiritual Retirement. Yet, the trick is that paying attention will never stop. The goal isn't to no longer need to pay attention: it's to pay attention forever. At some point it becomes effortless, but this is both the path and the fruit: pay attention, pay attention, pay attention. There is no goal, no stopping point - it's that you will no longer need to stop anywhere.

"One more thing that really helped me (not sure if this applies to you): I was looking to 'stop' somewhere. I wanted to meditate, get enlightened (which at first was defined as stream entry, then 4th path, now AF), then I would have no more worries: Permanent Spiritual Retirement. Yet, the trick is that paying attention will never stop. The goal isn't to no longer need to pay attention: it's to pay attention forever. At some point it becomes effortless, but this is both the path and the fruit: pay attention, pay attention, pay attention. There is no goal, no stopping point - it's that you will no longer need to stop anywhere."

This advice is golden. Having received similar advice for post-release work, I have found that it seems to be the cure for all shadow related stuff. Shadow stuff was the result of not paying attention, just residual tendencies to 'not pay attention'. If you train the mind to pay attention 24/7, post- release may well not have any shadow to deal with.

It is just an ever flow of continuum of the distinctions within distinctions within distinctions and some more distinctions, form, consciousness, preference, memory and volition. When any of it is given weight, that is when the problems start. Weight meaning status of even the subtlest kind. Give no weight to any distinction!

I accept that the goal is to pay attention forever. I can see how wonderful all those moments would be.

My problem is that there are somehow no longer the conditions for more than blips of attention. If I feel strong anger or annoyance, these will prompt attention and cut off an exaggerated reaction, but beyond gross negative conditions I currently lack the triggers for sustained attention.

Gross stress no longer persists. Anger is quickly quelled. The stories of sadness or injustice are not dwelled upon. Thank you all for getting me here! Life is wonderful!

Perhaps greater attention will unfold by itself. Perhaps not? Perhaps 'I' still need to do something to move things forward. Perhaps not? I feel slight sadness and confusion by this situation, but then...release.

I get the sense that those of you have made significant progress have always had strong motivation and practice momentum. Is this accurate? Are there any lazy enlightened people who have moved through this dilemma?

"I accept that the goal is to pay attention forever. I can see how wonderful all those moments would be."

In re-reading the above, I realize what a sack of horsesh*t it is. It is known to me that this fabrication of the future is a lie, I just constantly forget it.

Maybe I'm missing something but exactly what is the problem? I'm not sure one needs to be mindful 100% of the time. I'm not sure that's even possible. How could it be? For example, I often get into a "flow" condition while working. I am not at those times mindful of anything but what I'm concentrated on doing. That, to me, is being awake. As Suzuki Roshi was fond of saying, "When eating, just eat!

So Justin, maybe you're in the condition that you always wanted to achieve and your conceptual mind, being what it is, just wants to reassert itself by making you uncomfortable or unhappy or just plain ol' dissatisfied there. So.... let it do what it does and enjoy your condition in spite of it

"Perhaps greater attention will unfold by itself. Perhaps not? Perhaps 'I' still need to do something to move things forward. Perhaps not? I feel slight sadness and confusion by this situation, but then...release."

O, you're way beyond me in terms of practice, but for what it's worth... I think this quote is the key one.

I can only project, but I'll often find myself wanting a new flavor or slant of this enlightenment project of mine... and then I realize, that's the problem in itself.

That's the I that wants to be distracted by a new angle, a new refinement, a new.... a new anything except what's happening right now. Wait, why am I running from right now? Because it is neutral and boring and not satisfying and without reward. Nothing for the "I".

Hope this helps, it's probably not exactly on target but maybe there will be some positive collateral damage

"
Maybe I'm missing something but exactly what is the problem? I'm not sure one needs to be mindful 100% of the time. I'm not sure that's even possible. How could it be? For example, I often get into a "flow" condition while working. I am not at those times mindful of anything but what I'm concentrated on doing. That, to me, is being awake. As Suzuki Roshi was fond of saying, "When eating, just eat!

So Justin, maybe you're in the condition that you always wanted to achieve and your conceptual mind, being what it is, just wants to reassert itself by making you uncomfortable or unhappy or just plain ol' dissatisfied there. So.... let it do what it does and enjoy your condition in spite of it

"

Chris - I intuitively feel that you are right. The reason that I posed this question was not so much my agonizing over it as to tease out the wisdom of this group with respect to this topic.

Do we need to attend 100% or do we just need to attend "enough"?

Do I wait for full enlightenment in the future or do I accept my messy enlightenment today? Does messy enlightenment naturally bloom into no more becoming, or is this my fated cul de sac, my imperfect perfection?

I really don't know the answer to this question, and I doubt that anyone truly can. But each of you holds different parts of the mystery to perhaps make this question even more rich.

"

"

Without 'being', without shadow 'being', without any sense of 'me-ness', no matter how sublte or broken, there is nothing that 'pays attention' nor 'needs to be mindful 100% of the time'. If one were doing that, there probably wouldn't be any 'being' left at the end of the week. Without it, there is only 'paying attention'.

Paying attention in paying attention is seeing in the seen, hearing in the heard etc. And when it is seen that that is all that needs to be done, no need for any type of 'being', it is virtually impossible to turn off. I wouldn't know how. Every waking moment is paid attention to 'flow'. That to me is being awake; when there is no need more for 'something' to be 'mindful'. There is just mindfulness/apperception/paying attention by default.

Justin, what aspect/s of your experience are you giving any weight to? Investigate that. By weight I mean status of a low or high kind. Why does an aspect of your experience have any status? The aspect could be a 'sense impression', meaning an object hitting a sense door. A particular train of thought? Memories? Beliefs? Imagery? A sensation? A compounded feeling? Is there a feeling? Perhaps work backwards from the feeling. What is the sense impression that is hitting a sense door to trigger the feeling to arise? A sense impression is the contact of any object with its corresponding sense door. See which sense impression is triggering the vedana to trigger the feeling you feel? Work back to the very moment the sense impression is arising. What happens when you watch just the sense impression, allowing it to fade away by itself?

Nick

I then saw what was triggering the vedana to trigger the feeling of worry. It was the ignorance of allowing thoughts of 'me' needing to be happy, craving stability via having money'. This ignorance of sankhara, the volition to fabricate 'worry' was seen to arise when there was ignorance of that but also what happened after the initial sense impression arose. So I paid attention to just the sense impression (the thoughts of worry) with the notion that ignorance of how they were being triggered had been taken down. The sense impression loses all power. The vedana fades. The feeling of worry does not get a chance to form. Freedom from the fabrication of worry occurs.

Swap 'worry' for 'lack of motivation', feelings of I love my messy enlightenment, feelings of I am satisfied with my messy enlightenment, or any feeling for that matter.

Here is what i did for any confusion, any situation.

Pay attention to the main arcing theme of the moment. How am i feeling? From the feeling, I would pay attention for any clues as to the content. Maybe some feelings and thoughts of worry were arising due to financial concerns. Perhaps for yourself, the feeling of no motivation.

Then I would pay attention to the the vedana arising in the body that seemed to be colouring the feeling of worry. Then I would switch to the thoughts of "I don't have enough money!" or the imagery of 'me' without money. I would then see that those sense impressions that was triggering the vedana to arise that led to the feelings of worry were the very thoughts that were being allowed to arise via the ignorant volitional movements of the mind to think of 'money concerns' due to a belief that 'I' needed stability to be happy.

It became clear, the ignorance of what was going on, the illusion of 'me' and 'other', was leading to a thought of 'need more money for 'me' to be happy and stable'. That would then trigger vedana to arise. A soupy, heavy flow of sensation at the chest. This would then trigger the arising of an affective feeling of worry. The vedana and consequent feeling would trigger more thoughts of 'money needs' and the cycle would continue getting stronger, the vedana getting stronger, and the thoughts more worrisome.

Continued...

orasis: "Do we need to attend 100% or do we just need to attend "enough"?"

You get what you aim for.

orasis: "Do I wait for full enlightenment in the future or do I accept my messy enlightenment today?"

Waiting for full enlightenment means it will never happen. Accepting 'messy enlightenment' means you will not get past that.

orasis: "Does messy enlightenment naturally bloom into no more becoming..."

Does a run-of-the-mill person naturally bloom into an enlightened one without doing anything?

orasis: "...or is this my fated cul de sac, my imperfect perfection?"

It is if you want it to be!

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From this post, I get the impression that you equate practicing to being dissatisfied somehow. You make the false distinction between 'waiting for full enlightemnent' (meaning you can't be happy with your current state, and you will have to put in some work in order to 'get the goods') and 'accepting messy enlightenment' (meaning you will enjoy your condition, somewhat, but at least you can enjoy it now). Is that accurate?

Why not enjoy your current state in a manner which will feed upon itself in a positive feedback loop, leading to more and more and more enjoyment? Why not enjoy your state by being as mindful as you can possibly be? Mindful to what? To what is not suffering. What is not suffering? Senses, consciousness, perception, if they are not subject to clinging. What if they are? Then watch them more closely until they are not. More mindfulness leads to more enjoyment leads to more mindfulness ... in a loop that will spell the end of 'you', all the while enjoying the path.

Put differently: clinging is suffering. Anything you see clearly, you do not cling to. Not clinging, you do not suffer from that. Less suffering means more enjoyment. Thus, the more you see clearly, the less you suffer, and the more enjoyment results. More enjoyment means it is easier to see clearly... etc.

"Justin, what aspect/s of your experience are you giving any weight to? Investigate that. By weight I mean status of a low or high kind. Why does an aspect have any status?
"

Thank you Nick. Your advice is always very practical and useful. I do feel like there is oscillation in my experience, some weighting that pulls things away from equilibrium and then has to snap back to a peacefulness. I will try to keep this suggestion in mind. Sincere thanks.

Khandha Samyutta No. 117

It was said that one should know the feelings, their conditioned origin, their diversity, their outcome, their cessation, and the way to their cessation. Why was this said?
What are the feelings? These three: pleasant, painful, and neither-painful-nor-pleasant.

What is the conditioned origin of these feelings? Sense-impression is the conditioned origin of the feelings.

What is the diversity in feelings? There are pleasant feelings, worldly and unworldly; there are painful feelings, worldly and unworldly; and there are neutral feelings, worldly and unworldly.

What is the outcome of feelings? It is the personalized existence (attabhava) born of this or that (feeling), be it of a meritorious or demeritorious character, which one who feels causes to arise.

What is the cessation of feelings? It is the cessation of sense impression that is the cessation of feelings.

And it is the noble eightfold path that is the way leading to the cessation of feelings, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration.

If a noble disciple knows in such way the feelings, their conditioned origin, their diversity, their outcome, their cessation, and the way to their cessation, he will be one who knows this penetrative Holy Life, namely the cessation of feelings. END OF QUOTE

Note how the cessation of vedana (which leads to craving, clinging and becoming) drops away. Via the cessation of the sense impression. Perhaps with this idea in mind (how vedana ceases), pay attention to the sense impression An object hitting a sense door (maybe a train of thought hitting the mind) that is causing a particular vedana to arise to trigger the rest of the sequence of becoming. Watch it dispassionately with the idea that it will eventually show its cessation naturally.

Nick,

That sutta is pretty explicitly pointing at feelings. I'm surprised it hasn't come up before (perhaps it has and I missed it/forgot). Fascinating as it is indeed vedana that is gone in a PCE.

"What is the cessation of feelings? It is the cessation of sense impression that is the cessation of feelings."

Could you give your take on the cessation of sense impression? What do you take that to mean?

www.vridhamma.org/Vedana-and-the-Four-Noble-Truths

"Whatever sensations one experiences in the body, pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, inside or outside, all are suffering, all are illusory, all are ephemeral. A meditator observes that wherever there is a contact in the body, sensations pass away (as soon as they arise). Realizing this truth with the extinction of sensations, the meditator is freed from craving, fully liberated.
A person fully established in this truth becomes liberated from the habit of craving and clinging towards sensations and reaches the state where there is no more vedana (vedana-khayavedana-khaya). (This is the stage of nibbana reached in the second anupassana.) A meditator who has experienced this state of arahatta-phalaarahata-phala becomes nicchato (freed from all desires). Such a person becomes parinibbutaparinibbuta (totally liberated).
Therefore, to experience and understand dukkha-saccadukkha-sacca (suffering), samudaya-saccasamudaya-sacca (its arising), nirodha-saccanirodha-sacca (its cessationcessation) and dukkha-nirodha-gamini-patipada-saccadukkha-nirodha-gamini-patipada-sacca (the path leading to the cessation of suffering), one has to work with sensations and realize the truth of vedana (vedana-saccavedana-sacca), the arising of vedana (vedana-samudaya-sacca), the cessation of vedana (vedana-nirodha-sacca) and the path leading to the cessation of vedana (vedana-nirodha-gamini-patipada-sacca)."

"The Buddha further says that the purpose of the practice of the ariyo atthangiko maggoariyo atthangiko maggo (the Noble Eightfold Pathnoble eightfold path), is to understand vedana and reach the state of vedana-nirodha" (cessation of feelings):

"Vedanā is a word in Sanskrit and Pāli traditionally translated as either "feeling"[1] or "sensation."[2]"

Answered my own question!

"When the mind looks into the sense of loss and comprehends Truth (avijja-nirodha), habitual drives cease (sankhara-nirodha) and the awareness is no longer bound by discrimination (viññana-nirodha); so that the separation of the subject and object is no longer held (nama-rupa-nirodha) and one does not feel trapped behind or pulled out through the six sense-doors (salayatana-nirodha). The sense-doors open for reflection, rather than being dependent on contact (phassa-nirodha) and impingement does not impress itself into the mind (vedana-nirodha). So there is freedom from desire (tanha-nirodha) and attention does not get stuck (upadana-nirodha) and grow into selfish motivations (bhava-nirodha) that center around and reinforce the ego (jati-nirodha). When no personal image is created, it can never bloat up, nor can it be destroyed (jara-maranam-nirodha). So there is nothing to lose, a sense of gladness, uplift, joy and serenity (soka-parideva-dukkha-domanass-upayasa-nirodha)."

amaravati.org/abmtrial/documents/the_way_it_is/00int.html

"Answered my own question!

"When the mind looks into the sense of loss and comprehends Truth (avijja-nirodha), habitual drives cease (sankhara-nirodha) and the awareness is no longer bound by discrimination (viññana-nirodha); so that the separation of the subject and object is no longer held (nama-rupa-nirodha) and one does not feel trapped behind or pulled out through the six sense-doors (salayatana-nirodha). The sense-doors open for reflection, rather than being dependent on contact (phassa-nirodha) and impingement does not impress itself into the mind (vedana-nirodha). So there is freedom from desire (tanha-nirodha) and attention does not get stuck (upadana-nirodha) and grow into selfish motivations (bhava-nirodha) that center around and reinforce the ego (jati-nirodha). When no personal image is created, it can never bloat up, nor can it be destroyed (jara-maranam-nirodha). So there is nothing to lose, a sense of gladness, uplift, joy and serenity (soka-parideva-dukkha-domanass-upayasa-nirodha)."

amaravati.org/abmtrial/documents/the_way_it_is/00int.html "

There ya go.

What am amazing thread. Bookmarked!

Hey orasis,

Any progress in terms of motivation?

It's a tough one for me, too. I will forget to pay attention. Then, when I do, I wonder - why did I ever stop doing this? Then, I will forget to pay attention. Then, when I do, I wonder - why did I ever stop doing this? etc...

Have you found anything that works better for you?

Well, I've bounced back from the bottom and my frequency of awakeness seems to be increasing again. I think part of the problem was a compounded dissatisfaction with noticing that I was on a down cycle.

What is happening with me is that I'm just letting go more. Letting go of progress, letting go of attainment, and letting go of the path. I have also resolved that there are certain times I am not allowed to ruminate - especially when I take walks, then I resolve to take more walks.

I have a hunch that this whole process will continue to manifest in cycles and the down ones will still be frustrating, but will get less and less so as the whole process is seen and just let go of.

I dunno though, its tough when you're in it and the mind is searching around for answers while at the same time we've been doing this long enough to know that answers won't fix it...funny place.

good luck. If you figure out any tricks, let me know.